00:00:03: My UX background is what sets me for success in the PM role.
00:00:35: Because with designers we have already so many skills, though.
00:00:40: first of all Empathy, the big king of UX field.
00:00:46: The PMs.
00:00:47: they are responsible for user requirements and extracting what users need.
00:00:52: designers were also responsible for this right.
00:00:55: but Also is a huge advantage Is the fact that we as designers?
00:00:59: Were always actually convincing people.
00:01:01: We're defending our design where we're arguing for it And so we have those strong negotiation skills.
00:01:09: At least as we mature and become more senior, this is a prerequisite for success for designers.
00:01:14: And this absolutely transferable for
00:01:17: PM.".
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00:02:07: Welcome to another episode of Lead UX, the User Experience Leadership Circle.
00:02:12: Your compass through ever-evolving landscape of UX leadership and challenges & opportunities in our profession!
00:02:21: My guest today is Diana Belodetov who's Product Owner at Volkswagen Group IT and Community Lead of Design Horizontal And we met at UXCAM where she gave a great talk about her career path and I thought it might be a great opportunity to talk more detail here on the show.
00:02:41: So, great to have you here, Diana!
00:02:44: Thank you Thomas.
00:02:45: thanks for the invite.
00:02:47: Yeah my pleasure.
00:02:48: This episode as i said is about Diana's path from UX in product management but also about identity, maybe career shifts and changes.
00:02:59: And the moments when a career shift becomes more than just a role change.
00:03:04: So this is gonna be really interesting topic for all our listeners who may be currently struggling with their UX future career topics and things like that.
00:03:14: so very much looking forward to hear more About your background in your thought process behind this.
00:03:21: yeah career way.
00:03:25: But before we dive into the details, I always like that the listeners get to know you a bit better.
00:03:31: so... To start simply- The question i always ask in the beginning what gets up these days from your professional point of view?
00:03:39: From my professional point It's really building the right thing and building the product.
00:03:58: And this is my motivation, it sounds very cheesy... ...it sounds very designer-ish but I love interacting with people.
00:04:09: so waking up in the morning already excited about new interactions especially now where i build a product that isn't live yet And we're in a lot of discovery phases.
00:04:24: I think this is the most exciting part for me, kind of how can we take you know?
00:04:30: The challenges that people have all of that complexity That comes In the enterprise environment and consolidated to You know as simple as possible Of a solution?
00:04:43: Yeah Great great.
00:04:45: so the motivation you shared.
00:04:47: I mean, um...I heard quite some time already but i think every professional path is individual.
00:04:53: so can you walk us a little bit about your uh into or get as a claims about your professional paths?
00:05:00: So where did it start and what were your-what were the career changes that we will talk about in a bit more detail throughout this talk?
00:05:10: Sure sure!
00:05:14: design path, but also pretty fluid in the roles that I took throughout the years.
00:05:21: And i need to thank a lot my university because it really established very solid fundament when comes to interests and skills.
00:05:34: So I studied product design back in the days.
00:05:36: Product Design actually meant physical product designs, so we're designing everything from chairs but also devices and things like this.
00:05:46: And while at it i took a lot of interaction design courses which kind of really opened my eyes to how the physical, but also digital worlds are connected within products and also of course environments.
00:06:03: And we can create experiences throughout different touch points in that case.
00:06:09: so I think it set me up to a good route.
00:06:13: then worked on different roles like service design designing an education program for architects and designers.
00:06:25: So kind of looking again, what are the touch points?
00:06:29: Of a course or an education course?
00:06:31: then I also worked with different startups like Mellow was one of them.
00:06:37: it's really exciting one.
00:06:38: It is platform to connect parent experts within Germany And making friends through these two pillars.
00:06:50: and how fragile of an experience that could be, you know?
00:06:53: How do we bring people together?
00:06:55: was really interesting.
00:06:57: And then fast forward I work in Volkswagen.
00:07:01: I was hired as a digital product designer so kind to end designer with full ownership this is not super unique but unique really are responsible, usually for one product from discovery till delivery and also maintenance of that products.
00:07:27: And yeah then I worked on different products.
00:07:30: so maybe interesting for the audience would be to kind of like place me in their head what i do and where I work.
00:07:39: So currently I work in Volkswagen Group IT which is the IT sector of the entire Volkswagen group.
00:07:48: And I work in software development center, Which means that we are co-partner for any business department That needs a product either developed or also transformed So transitioned from let's say mainframe to cloud.
00:08:08: so We have a lot of brownfield products as well as green field products too.
00:08:17: Yeah, and this is why it's so exciting because it's kind of the back office for Volkswagen operations right?
00:08:24: There is a customer facing role where you can interact with your car.
00:08:29: what services do you have on the app to open or get a service repair at the shop?
00:08:41: How can we enable the people that work within their organization to basically have a more delightful work, but also more efficient and how they make processes better?
00:08:56: So for instance if you had brownfield product it would mean not only opportunity of what is called lift-and-shift.
00:09:06: But really this point where we stop and ask Okay, what are the processes?
00:09:12: Why are they the way they are and how we can make a new application better and better suitable for people that work now not maybe thirty years ago.
00:09:27: How do you say... some words I only know in German!
00:09:32: So when you study them in Germany it's kind of a thing.
00:09:39: Your customers are the internal Volkswagen employees than in the end, not the end-customers who buy who buys a vehicle.
00:09:47: Exactly yeah.
00:09:48: and then just to add on that because I mean now we're talking about my role as product manager or product owner.
00:09:54: so Yeah i worked at different products throughout The years really from sales them too compliance and also I had the opportunity to lead a design team in one of them.
00:10:07: And fast forward nowadays, um...I would call it i'm still in the transition into my new role because they still do some design tasks on my day-to-day.
00:10:18: but yeah role is product manager or product owner in safe environment.
00:10:24: for those who don't know what's safe is scaled agile framework.
00:10:31: Yeah, great.
00:10:32: So you mentioned processes already.
00:10:33: so I think this is something that You were into in that role especially from the very beginning also when you were like a real designer.
00:10:45: And so how?
00:10:47: When did you notice That you actually are interested In those press processes topics and Also maybe the product decisions and even The business goals?
00:10:58: probably that might be behind I would say always.
00:11:04: From the very start, because early on in my career... ...I had an opportunity to work really close with a CEO for instance and it was like asking those questions that were needed to basically answer these questions Like how do we make money?
00:11:23: How did you know if this is good or not?
00:11:31: When I worked on products, it was always kind of the annoying designer so to say who would ask you know Why why are we building this like?
00:11:40: Why is this important?
00:11:42: because also The way will work.
00:11:44: Is that we have a lot of products and Sometimes were lucky enough to choose which product We can be allocated too.
00:11:52: And so from that lens i would always look at this.
00:11:56: If it's a green product, sometimes is very experimental and has a lot of potential but maybe you have less exposure to users.
00:12:05: so also let's impact.
00:12:07: or if its'a huge system modernization kind of a pillar systems for the company their operations then okay that may be more boring because alot things are decided.
00:12:25: And so, yeah.
00:12:26: I was the person who always would also bother my PMs as like wait but who actually decided this and which user gave these feedback?
00:12:35: Let's go talk to them and understand a little bit more.
00:12:40: So i think This is what set me up for my curiosity For the pm role because You know As a designer you say when sit at table or A lot of us do And you want to get closer to that.
00:12:57: That was also my goal, how can I get closer?
00:13:02: It's not about role or title but more of the ownership and exposure to a bigger picture.
00:13:13: Yeah!
00:13:13: That is great.
00:13:13: But it takes two things To be able actually speak up and ask those questions.
00:13:19: At first hand You have to be brave enough even as a young designer to actually ask those questions.
00:13:25: But on the other hand, it seems like in your group there is this environment where those questions are also valued and as you said, C-level executives would then come to you when asked those questions or give you the answers that you asked for.
00:13:42: so yeah... This was an important topic but also about company culture.
00:13:46: I think Yeah!
00:13:50: it's about getting the information.
00:13:52: It doesn't matter where you get the information from, so when I was firstly hired in Volkswagen we also back in the days did a lot of design pairing.
00:14:01: So we would design like co-design together kind of like pair programming and pair designing.
00:14:09: And so You know We get an assignment.
00:14:12: There is this story or this feature that needs to be designed for part of a flow.
00:14:17: i could still ask The designer and there will be lake wait?
00:14:21: I also don't know.
00:14:22: And then it triggers them to go and ask, right?
00:14:24: So at some point the information would come but i think its all about being that curious person That...I mean maybe is like a personality trait in a sense because Im kind of the person who likes when i know what i work towards Because this gives me motivation This fuels my inner spark.
00:14:52: Yes, and of course we can encourage everybody despite personality traits to actually ask those questions.
00:15:00: Why are you building this?
00:15:02: And just in the next episode We will have an own topic Just talking about Those early stages and product development where you can also do some research And to get a better understanding if the product you're building is actually something which would solve users problems.
00:15:24: So that's super important and I definitely would encourage everybody in this design field, yeah simply ask those questions!
00:15:34: You observed then some thing in the PMC work with... That somehow felt interesting or natural or attractive to you because actually at some point in your career, obviously decided also to move into that direction.
00:15:52: So what did attract you to do?
00:15:54: That role of what was where the topics that PMS were doing to make this attractive?
00:16:04: for The beginning?
00:16:05: I just focus on my design domain.
00:16:07: right love designing more of a UXer rather than a UIR, if you want to put me on some kind of scale in your head.
00:16:18: And at some point I started observing PMs and it was really fascinated by basically their orchestration skills how they can multitask like jump between different environments Like almost like chameleons kind of changing, you know?
00:16:38: You need to change yourself through the situation.
00:16:41: So sometimes they're more of a defender defending the team so that have more time To work on something.
00:16:50: then in different case there are more of an orchestrator.
00:16:56: It's about how can we have dynamic and fruitful conversation.
00:17:02: then they also have the head of the strategic thinker.
00:17:06: You know, that things long term how do we get there?
00:17:10: But then also... They make decisions really quick sometimes without knowing all of this story.
00:17:18: right but why?
00:17:19: yeah it's a never ending conversation if you keep asking but need to make decision now.
00:17:27: I think those characteristics was both curious about but also I felt like, I resonate with a lot of it.
00:17:37: And this is where started kind looking more behind the shoulder off my product managers that i was working with and slowly but surely to be honest My transition Was More Of A Lucky Coincidence So To Say Or Like Very Dynamic very natural.
00:17:57: so for me It Happened In The Way That My PM.
00:18:02: she was anyhow very busy, so we were working on this AI product which is pretty big in terms of how many people and complexity.
00:18:16: She had a lot on her shoulders And I at the same time was curious about all those aspects that I asked said before, right?
00:18:26: Like where are we building this?
00:18:28: and like let's try to measure things with UX and the data that we have.
00:18:35: And she saw it!
00:18:37: She kind of invited me slowly and truly help her.
00:18:41: so in the beginning it was more okay... We had a design ready then reviewed and write stories.
00:18:48: I can take over some story writing which makes sense nowadays.
00:18:55: it's a standard anyway to just kind of collaborate on this, right?
00:18:59: And then later on when she would go on vacations.
00:19:03: I think that is where the aha moment really happened because all of sudden i'm there.
00:19:10: Not alone but in that sense alone representing the team.
00:19:14: so we were several teams working also with external agencies and there was a lot eyes on this project.
00:19:20: So you know management sitting things like, you know roadmaps are discussed and so forth.
00:19:30: And I need to explain everyone what did we deliver?
00:19:34: Maybe why-what?
00:19:35: we did not... What kind of hiccups do we have?
00:19:38: What kind challenges does it have?
00:19:40: was really intimidating but also very interesting because all of a sudden your exposed to broader circles of influence.
00:19:50: I think the most challenging in those moments is to not have someone to hide behind.
00:20:03: Yeah, so for me there are two things to take away.
00:20:06: So if there were opportunities you will have to take it?
00:20:12: try out something newer, step into a kind of new role and then do it.
00:20:17: And also you described that you stepped a bit off your comfort zone as well.
00:20:24: was this let's say summary which would you agree to?
00:20:29: Absolutely!
00:20:29: I think a prerequisite for that is.
00:20:32: we were two designers on the team so i'm super thankful absolutely understood the situation and also gave me the room to kind of be both symbiotic creature.
00:20:53: So, um... The title for your talk was Oops!
00:20:55: I became a PM.
00:20:56: so this sounded like you woke up next morning in boof there where were.
00:21:01: but it sounds that is more time consuming transition or process.
00:21:08: Yeah, there's definitely a build-up right.
00:21:11: that was just what I said before about the The transition like covering up for a PM.
00:21:17: She still stayed at PM and I still say stay the designer of that product But it gave me the taste.
00:21:23: It was just uh...the first kind of key to the first door.
00:21:29: Just so like or maybe it was me peeking in through the lock And seeing whats on other side and tasting.
00:21:38: but i think I also hit a wall with that because once i started thinking about, okay so maybe PMing is something for me and was trying the clothes of a PM.
00:21:54: And the tasks...I realized it might be a betrayal to design or designer where designers are.
00:22:07: There is something very unique about designers, and I also observe it in our organization.
00:22:12: We're usually the smaller group but we are very united like people exchanging with people, sticking together, exchanging ideas... ...we also like to stand on ground And were taught that what you do is important.
00:22:30: I always feel like designers, they have this shield.
00:22:37: They're the warriors of product development process and so i didn't want to lose that!
00:22:49: As a betrayal...I would do something wrong.
00:22:52: It's like a sin And I'd loose things.
00:22:57: This was my imposter syndrome or self-talk.
00:23:03: what would happen, I think with every transition you have this process where you're like hitting a wall in terms of fear.
00:23:11: You know?
00:23:11: Fear is kicking in and you are like wait!
00:23:13: Wait!
00:23:14: Let's think about it not so fast.
00:23:18: So yeah...I hit the wall there for quite awhile And as solution to that part me said let us try we can take into next step again luxurious situation where I need to really, really thank my managers and the environment that i'm in.
00:23:41: That's allowed of that?
00:23:44: And there is two say uh so talked with me managers and we said okay what if in the next product will take an official role but I would pair within other p.m.. So it was split the roll.
00:23:58: so to say this is where am at the moment.
00:24:02: So our product now, it is a modernization product and I'm pairing with another PM.
00:24:09: he's very technical and has PMing experience.
00:24:13: i am very UX-erish still learning.
00:24:19: yeah this where I am.
00:24:21: but also talked about in my talk that I had this aha moment when I think it was in the XTX from Tim Ross, I believe his name.
00:24:39: And he said something like... He has this quote that is being the sheep-in-the-wolf close because throughout his career so he's a designer and at some point more with his design skills.
00:25:02: And so he started transitioning to unconventional roles for a designer, experience lead stuff like this and He could really influence the business from within while promoting UX.
00:25:16: It can resonate with it because in the end of day.
00:25:22: This is what we designers want.
00:25:24: Any organization Can benefit from UX maturity increase and your organization can benefit from more design leadership, right?
00:25:35: What we talk about?
00:25:36: designer at the table.
00:25:38: The decision table.
00:25:40: And so once I switch this thinking into this thinking of oh it's not About their role because i would always be a designer This is what i believe right like you're a designer for ones and for all.
00:25:56: Once understood they say think this fear or a lot just naturally calmed down because the mission all of a sudden became much stronger than the fear.
00:26:08: Yeah, but can we go back for a moment to this emotional barrier?
00:26:11: Because it's really an interesting point which also struck me during your talk.
00:26:16: so why did you think that was betrayal?
00:26:19: actually were now in position to decide things?
00:26:23: yeah Why is it a betrayal?
00:26:27: or do I have bad conscious about this role shift?
00:26:34: I think as designers, we take a lot on ourselves.
00:26:42: And i think that's part of it the designer pride and he takes some time to also lose enough throughout your career in understanding like you're not so important.
00:26:56: yeah You have methodology Yes!
00:26:59: You are so empathic but at end everyone in the organization have their impact.
00:27:10: But still, I think it's more that i thought that...I will lose something.
00:27:18: It was a betrayal to design like for example where three colleagues leading the Design Horizontal community.
00:27:26: So that was an insecurity of mine.
00:27:28: Does it mean I cannot play with the cool kids anymore if i go and become a product manager, right?
00:27:36: And does this mean That I'm seen differently maybe by my managers differently all of sudden?
00:27:46: Yeah!
00:27:46: Im just in different group... ...and I think there's been a lot of insecurities which could be relieved.
00:27:57: Just as a person, you're never defined by your role.
00:28:00: Yeah It's part of it's your job right eight of eight hours or You know give and take Going into this every day but But still your human being and you can be a t-shape And he could also be a p shape Right?
00:28:16: I feel like i'm now with P shapes.
00:28:17: So I have the design maybe its longer P and The PM and all the other skills orchestrated somewhere above?
00:28:29: Yeah, that's definitely understandable.
00:28:34: You mentioned you were also very much supported by your own managers and then who saw your ambitions and support it to... By the way did those fears come true or we are seen differently from designers?
00:28:50: maybe let us talk about this at first.
00:28:52: So did I really see you differently or was this just a fear?
00:28:56: You had in the beginning, which never luckily came true.
00:29:23: too very much interested in like stuff, design systems and the nitty-gritty of The Pixel Perfect.
00:29:31: And I super appreciate the craft!
00:29:33: And i love working with talented people that can go and dig so deep... ...and you know they have just talented minds but it was never to interesting in there.
00:29:45: So anyhow played in the field of the intersection And people around me, I think they're pretty much encouraging.
00:29:57: Yeah and i can still play with the cool kids like we still join all of design rituals you know?
00:30:02: We still drink coffee as usual!
00:30:05: Great yeah so... As you said the recognition from outside was super important.
00:30:10: So this is also something about company culture as I said and leadership Which yeah, you have to be lucky enough.
00:30:21: To work in such an environment.
00:30:22: so maybe You can talk a little bit about this external support that actually then I as i understood marked turning point for you too finally decide to officially step into That role totally.
00:30:40: So I think Peelers or like a lot of points actually fueled into this transition and me gaining the confidence.
00:30:48: It even started before me thinking about that transition with formats, for instance in Volkswagen we have some internal Mentoring programs.
00:30:58: so I was mentored by another leader And she gave me so much confidence.
00:31:03: So i would meet monthly With her.
00:31:06: first I would get a little bit more exposure as to kind of like, you know the dynamics of the company and then she would also give me tasks.
00:31:16: Like tasks off me going outside of my comfort zone.
00:31:19: so it already kind of loosened up my sensitivity too.
00:31:24: You know Going into certain rooms or raising my voice Or yeah Taking the extra step.
00:31:33: Then My manager is super encouraging and, you know with what he can offer.
00:31:40: He would always support and help And make sure that I'm growing or take courses Yeah different conferences and so forth which is also something That i would encourage people to do like step out of your bubble because a company Can very much be a bubble.
00:32:04: see what other companies are doing.
00:32:06: What is happening in the industry, because this part of it right to recognize that also with AI you know things will change.
00:32:14: roles would change and they are changing already.
00:32:18: um yeah And actually when I joined i Also had a really nice mentor.
00:32:26: he was a designer but i think He also gave me A lot Of confidence.
00:32:31: also You just came In and he's like okay who Is Who What is what?
00:32:36: How things work here.
00:32:39: And I think part of the culture within our organization, so specifically my department because we're product designers or digital product designers... Part of the skills that they were searching for when hiring was this ownership and it's something where you always try to build more and more off Because oftentimes your only designer for the entire product.
00:33:06: So you're responsible for the discovery, you know?
00:33:10: For design itself and also building up from MVP then to a more mature products.
00:33:16: so of course we need more skills than maybe when your huge team of designers is doing their small part.
00:33:26: I think those are all really fueled to this point where I could take a feel confident and they feel that i can rely on the environment and worst case scenario.
00:33:40: I can always you know say it's too much and maybe i can roll back.
00:33:47: Yeah, that's great.
00:33:49: So maybe we can have a bit closer look on the relationships to different people you worked with.
00:33:59: so I assume when you stepped into this new role and talked your fellow designers they were... Maybe it was easier for them decisions that needs to be done by a PM, but how was it with other more technical people?
00:34:21: So did they also recognize you as somebody who has the say or were there looking differently at you because you came from a design area.
00:34:31: How is this interdisciplinary collaboration working?
00:34:37: That's good question!
00:34:40: Some of the people in my current team, I work with them before already.
00:34:44: So this is also a big contributor to The Trust and it's pretty rare that our designers are moving towards PMs or other companies who just have it as part of their growth path.
00:35:01: for us It isn't common to see that.
00:35:11: On the one hand, I have now my pair PM who's very technical and professional in what he is doing so that i can learn a lot from him.
00:35:24: So you know...I still have someone to lean on.
00:35:29: And then on the other side of it there are some of them I worked with because they give me more room.
00:35:38: Also my curiosity right?
00:35:42: stupid questions.
00:35:43: and while I'm still growing into the role, i feel confident asking them.
00:35:49: Be it asking directly to the developers or to chat with Claude which is also legit.
00:35:59: you know we have a pre-ipm like sprint planning and i'm still chatting with the chat sometimes on the side.
00:36:06: just understand what the developers mean And I think this is a big thing, so I would encourage anyone even if you're... Even the junior designer to interact more with developers and try to understand their main concepts.
00:36:23: Like what is architecture?
00:36:25: What is CICD?
00:36:28: What are those pillar terms?
00:36:30: What do they mean?
00:36:31: What does it mean push-to-production?
00:36:34: How much time things take in maybe pairing with Dev really see how they work, and so I think this really sets you up for success.
00:36:47: To show that your curious because you could also just say write whatever devs are saying needs to be done or on the contrary tell them what they need do without having discussions.
00:37:03: it's creating a trust dynamic within team which allows conversation And as I said, yeah.
00:37:25: it for sure changed.
00:37:42: so how your days look nowadays compared to a couple of years ago.
00:37:48: So if now our listeners are considering, okay maybe this might be a path from me as well because I'm insecure about design develops with all the AI support that may make my work superfluous or something like that?
00:38:04: How did you daily work change?
00:38:06: actually?
00:38:07: what's now your typical day looking Compared to a couple of years ago.
00:38:14: Yeah, so I must admit that i still do A little bit of design work in our team because currently we're We don't have a designer and the team who will get one soon.
00:38:25: So it would also be learning right like how?
00:38:29: How did dynamic works now that time?
00:38:32: The pm and working with the designer?
00:38:35: um I Would start maybe in a different.
00:38:41: So not only how did they change but also what are the trade-offs?
00:38:47: I think you gain a lot of Aspects like yeah, okay.
00:38:52: You have more say maybe in the product You can think more strategically again confidence you gain some negotiation skills right But you'll so lose stuff Because obviously there're only twenty four hours In the day and only maybe eight or you know, whatever.
00:39:14: You have in a working day so he cannot pack it all in.
00:39:19: so things like The perfect Figma design is a trade-off the small details of how everything should work.
00:39:32: as a trade off your not on this level anymore because you're more at the level of what is roadmap for next quarter?
00:39:42: What are most important features that need to be delivered so users can be happy.
00:39:51: We have a challenge with modernization software,
00:39:54: e.g.,
00:39:55: imagine you had it for thirty years and users were used.
00:40:01: And sometimes the software needs to be modernized, not because users want it but just because IT needs to modernize itself.
00:40:13: So often times in such projects we have a challenge that we work with MVPs and they are not satisfying user need.
00:40:23: so we need to work strategically to gain the user trust.
00:40:29: They don't have all the functionalities in this system yet, while still working slowly but surely towards bigger picture.
00:40:41: In terms of days I would say spend less time on hands-on work.
00:40:49: definitely and I think AI is a big companion nowadays, because especially now with Figma releasing the Figma agents and what happens with cloud design.
00:41:01: And GitHub Copilot on all of this it's so much easier to also work On this boundary between the roles.
00:41:12: So I'd said a little bit more under roadmap A little bit More Under backlog Making sure that developers know to build and making it very, very coherent for them.
00:41:28: Which is also something to learn because I think this was a little bit influenced by me.
00:41:36: but the fact that we're now going more into agentic development.
00:41:44: sometimes stories need technical understanding which encourages me to move towards the technical part of things.
00:41:59: So it means that I need understand business partners much, much better than before because Before i could just say okay there is a FRD so feature requirement document or some kind of documentation of requirements and I can work with that.
00:42:16: Now I need be sure That Im person in the room that understands alot about the business knowledge act as a reliable partner if the team doesn't have the comprehension.
00:42:30: Our developers are really motivated in understanding the user aspect, this is kind of part of the mindset that everyone's trying to understand big picture and so it makes my role pretty challenging because I need to provide information.
00:42:54: Also, again a big thank you for the AI that allows things like documentation being much easier done than before.
00:43:05: Yeah and of course a lot of meetings.
00:43:10: I think it's culture thing...I think its something maybe will go a little bit lower in the future because of AI and asynchronous communication, but nowadays it's still... A lot of communication on many levels.
00:43:25: And I think this is big skill for PMs.
00:43:31: what i said before It's a little dischameleon.
00:43:33: This hat different hats wearing that the PM needs to have.
00:43:38: How do you communicate with team?
00:43:41: With department?
00:43:43: With stakeholders?
00:43:45: How do you negotiate and have maybe sometimes difficult conversations?
00:43:49: Because we need to protect the team or the teams motivation.
00:43:55: Or vice versa, Maybe You Need To Tell The Team That We Could Do Stuff Better Next Time.
00:44:04: So your background in UX Was It Advantage.
00:44:09: so could use some of Your Knowledge In Terms Of Yeah being empathic with the users, also being empathetic now to developers maybe.
00:44:21: So what's this and an advantage for you that had a background in UX for all of these roles?
00:44:28: Absolutely I think my UX background is what sets me for success in the PM role because we designers have already so many skills that are applicable right... empathy.
00:44:45: The big king of UX, UX field were empathic and I think one thing that was kind of a aha moment for me when i started in this transition to PM was the fact that understood it well.
00:45:02: actually In a lot of literature And job description we see there is a big overlap.
00:45:11: so They are responsible for user requirements, empathy and extracting what users need.
00:45:20: Designers on the other hand were also responsible for this right?
00:45:25: So this is from the get go.
00:45:27: if you have that empathy And If You Have The Methodology methodology to extract those insights then it makes immediately a better PM because understand what users really need and where they're coming from.
00:45:45: And you can develop better things I think, but also is a huge advantage Is the fact that we as designers were always actually convincing people.
00:45:59: We are defending our design Where arguing for it?
00:46:02: So have those strong negotiation skills At least as we mature and become more senior, this is a prerequisite for success for designers.
00:46:12: And this is absolutely transferable for PM because yeah negotiation is the how you say in German at und auf kind of like that?
00:46:22: The very basic thing that Because most of your day's meetings on a lot of communication with others.
00:46:31: Yeah I think those are domain strength.
00:46:34: I also can see it.
00:46:36: I told you before, work with this PM who's a little bit more on the technical side and even The quality of questions that we ask when interacting with stakeholders are completely different.
00:46:51: This is why we really complete one another.
00:46:56: Let's do a little thought experiment.
00:46:57: I was just thinking maybe it should be part of the education for every designer to do at least partly some PM work, so now if you would go back to your work as design team lead what will be different?
00:47:11: or Would You Be A Better Design Team Lead Now With That Experience As A Product Owner?
00:47:19: Maybe Yes.
00:47:23: i think one thing that It's not necessarily a lesson from the PM role, but more of... From design and failures in the design role is stakeholder management.
00:47:40: In the sense of having empathy to everyone towards all stakeholders involved with projects.
00:47:49: I think one core learning that goes both for PMs having some time to talk with each individual in the team or maybe most important, you know parts of groups that represent them because often times first of all The personal level.
00:48:15: Personal connection is always what counts for further collaboration but then also understanding where people come from.
00:48:30: So what are the priorities of this stakeholder?
00:48:34: And I think, good PMs a really good at is understanding whether they're priorities for each individual or every group and trying to cater in best way possible.
00:48:49: To all those simultaneously.
00:48:54: you know... In the best ways that can though.
00:48:57: yeah i think it's one thing because even from a design experience, I had so many experiences where people had expectations but they were not talking the same language and didn't have the same goals.
00:49:12: And a lot of frustration starts bubbling in those moments.
00:49:16: So i think this is definitely that.
00:49:23: Yeah asking the annoying questions This really is the peeler because For being a better designer, you need to know the bigger context.
00:49:35: You need to Know what division of this project is?
00:49:38: You also need to absolutely know what financial situation Of the project is.
00:49:45: so why did The company decided to build This product or this feature?
00:49:51: how does it contribute either to them reduction off-cost Or two acquisition of more for the company?
00:50:00: So if you understand this, and maybe not going to CEO asking that directly but kind of dealing it through a chain of connections in people.
00:50:14: That would be super helpful because then you can off course take the train back an argue.
00:50:20: in the same way too whatever decision or whatever argument do have at hand?
00:50:26: You need to convince someone with Yeah, I think yeah especially when it comes to stakeholder management It's super important.
00:50:35: I mean it's not about convincing somebody else of your point a few but helping them To solve their problems because in the end everybody Of course wants to have the best solution But maybe from different viewpoints and then yet that's what you know Definitely needs a sort of mind shift and different point-of-view.
00:50:58: if you want to convince somebody From something then yes, you have two in the end help them to solve their problems And not convinced him too.
00:51:10: Yeah follow your understanding off The best solution things like that.
00:51:16: so but coming to the financial situations and numbers.
00:51:19: So was this something?
00:51:21: You were scared of or maybe, which was unfamiliar because quite often at least it seems like designers are a bit afraid dealing with numbers and maybe Excel sheets.
00:51:35: How was that experience for you?
00:51:39: Well luckily I don't need to deal too much with Excel spreadsheets nowadays but I must say that i'm already curious about even in my design practice.
00:51:53: So for instance, I can only recommend they took the D MBA course back in the days which is Design Business For Designers like.
00:52:01: it's not a real MBA but it kind of takes the essence of a lot of concepts off business and fuels them into how design practice can benefit from it.
00:52:12: so i found this was super beneficial And also...I don't think its scary because we have AI And so it's easier than ever to put some information, whatever you can compliantly put in the systems that you can compliantly use and ask questions on it.
00:52:34: Like how we measure this or that in a coherent way?
00:52:38: How I make the best of time with resources like capacity management is also huge topic for product management.
00:52:54: So yeah, I didn't become a finance person because specifically my department is not like...I'm not responsible for each and every number on the sheet but having bigger concepts in mind it's really beneficial.
00:53:09: so taking some courses or just success metrics how they work i think It's really good to have them.
00:53:20: Yeah, great advice.
00:53:22: Go ahead.
00:53:22: yeah sorry!
00:53:24: Yeah no because you asked before what I would recommend to the designers and i think it's really first getting out of your comfort zone also in the sense of which... What kind of information are you consuming?
00:53:40: Because this is where curiosity can spark beyond PM transition or whatsoever, but also for the design practice.
00:53:51: So I think Lenny's podcast is a huge.
00:53:54: you know it's a huge one.
00:53:55: It's very known that its great because of course going to conferences Its good But You Don't Always Have The Opportunity.
00:54:03: Um i Think This Is One Of The Podcasts Where You Can Really Get Exposed To What Is Happening In The Industry And How Other Professionals Make Decisions And maybe this is also something that you can bring into your company, get inspired.
00:54:21: Write someone of them on LinkedIn ask for a question or even the mentoring session if you're absolutely brave.
00:54:32: Yeah, I mean this was basically in the end also motivation to start this podcast here.
00:54:38: To give people like you a platform and share their experiences because i think that's super valuable for others to learn from.
00:54:47: And as mentioned already the mentoring.
00:54:49: so i guess This is something You would definitely recommend.
00:54:54: when you step out of conference zone better have somebody aside who can support your little bit right?
00:55:01: Yes, yes I also recently started mentoring on ADP list which i used for a long time as well.
00:55:08: Yeah by the way.
00:55:09: Forgot to mention this is something that from Time-to-Time when they need A little bit of either confidence boost or just have a specific question As too you know how other people deal with it in Other companies are Just piece of advice?
00:55:24: I would go so.
00:55:25: It's a platform That offers free mentorship.
00:55:29: They started as a design platform, but I think now they expanded to other roles.
00:55:33: So yeah you're also welcome too.
00:55:38: set up session with me new to the platform.
00:55:42: It's really fun and i think i learn a lot through mentoring as well.
00:55:46: so it's really exciting.
00:55:48: Yeah great!
00:55:49: We will definitely put link into show notes that people can get in contact as well for young mentoring and support during their potential career transitions.
00:56:06: We touched briefly on AI, so maybe we can at the end have a bit of closer look.
00:56:13: Of course I mean this is a topic in its own but you just saw that you had quite positive view as something which supports and helps understanding things not to steal your job.
00:56:30: So but when it comes to automation, things like and things like that.
00:56:35: A lot of people are a bit scared also.
00:56:39: so what's your view on AI?
00:56:41: How is the AI changing the UX and design nurse roles And maybe also the PM roles?
00:56:50: I don't know.
00:56:52: You said I'm positive i would say depending which day.
00:56:55: you ask me Yeah Yeah, it's an emotional roller coaster.
00:57:01: I think with every tool and new thing that you need to learn... Currently i put a lot of energy in setting up different things And there is a lot frustration at first when things doesn't work the way we expect.
00:57:21: It's very interesting how it changes roles slowly but surely And for a long time, I was kind of trying to dig into how it's going to change my role and what is gonna mean the future.
00:57:36: And... ...I had that pretty negative outlook when i found myself in those spiraling conversations with myself.
00:57:46: so What I decided to do?
00:57:48: just cut that cable and say let see the opportunities live at the now and see what are the best things that we can do with a situation.
00:58:04: At the moment, right?
00:58:05: Live in the now because I think those catatonic messages that sometimes appear on the internet they're really discouraging.
00:58:14: so yeah but you know i say things as they are Because alot of us are scared.
00:58:19: We already seen some impact But it's good to remember.
00:58:25: just a general outlook that I have with the eyes, some of us feel we don't control.
00:58:31: But this is the most dangerous thing to think because you know... We didn't decide those decisions for big corporates and so i can see it as an opportunity.
00:58:55: how can I have a chat with Claude about, How Can I Negotiate With The Stakeholder?
00:59:02: something that i believe would be beneficial for the users because they just told me.
00:59:07: They absolutely needed but there is maybe not budget right now so we can elevate those superpowers of ourselves.
00:59:17: What We Try To Do Now and Were Pretty Successful But were Still In The Mids Of Our Experiment Is to have a complete agentic orchestration of development.
00:59:30: So the developers are pretty fast with that, and it also puts a lot pressure on us PMs and designers because they're working much faster now And so everything has to do with consolidation and gathering requirements can become bottleneck.
00:59:52: This is where PMs & Designers really need to have methods, how to collect the information and structure it in a better way.
01:00:01: So something that we just started experimenting with is like a real me session by the end of a talk with a stakeholder because oftentimes And then we go to the team.
01:00:18: We think, you know... ...we have a feature build and concept.
01:00:22: The developers ask questions or someone asks them.
01:00:26: They're like wait!
01:00:27: Actually they don't know because it's not complete.
01:00:32: So this is why I want more and more of our information to be completed.
01:00:41: Of course that enables me as a PM to do more prototyping, go into the design especially given that we don't have a designer on our team.
01:00:51: So of course it's a privilege for me because I'm a designer so i can do both!
01:00:57: It is definitely like PNUX on steroids in a way.
01:01:04: Yeah great yeah.
01:01:04: so AI would be then something which takes away your job but gives you even superpower to do your current job and you're future job.
01:01:18: I think it can be both ways, but we need to take responsibility.
01:01:23: It's what i said before about AI is that sometimes not just surrender but actively seek for opportunities.
01:01:44: Yeah, so for everybody who feels threatened by AI there is definitely hope.
01:01:49: Absolutely!
01:01:50: Great great yeah.
01:01:52: thanks Diana for sharing those super valuable insights.
01:01:55: if now listeners think okay this might be something from me as well.
01:01:59: So it's one thing from your story which you would yes give them a key takeaway message?
01:02:12: I Think.
01:02:14: ask questions It's so obvious, I know but sometimes we're afraid.
01:02:21: Sometimes we don't want to give ourselves the uncomfortable feeling of being at the light where others can perceive us a little bit stupid or maybe unprepared.
01:02:34: But i actually think that this is our superpowers designers digging in asking questions and leveraging knowledge for our Empowerment.
01:02:49: so this is something that I would say and if you are interested in maybe becoming a PM or This is something.
01:02:56: That it's interesting for you try to find either mentor, or a co-worker who?
01:03:02: Is where your looking good terms with And have a conversation may be look behind their shoulder Maybe ask them for feedback.
01:03:13: What do they think?
01:03:14: what kind of a PM you will be?
01:03:16: and You know, as far honesty if your no If you're tough enough to bear it And start from there starts small Great yeah Thank-you.
01:03:29: great key takeaway message and I think your journey clearly shows how professional identity can not shift but evolve without losing your core values.
01:03:41: That was really great to have you on the show today and that you shared all your insights.
01:03:47: Thank you very much for inviting, yeah it was a delight I hope!
01:03:51: Yeah definitely And as i said we will add links uh To the topics you mentioned at to the show notes so that our listeners can explore next steps?
01:04:01: and follow this podcast on the podcast platform of your choice.
01:04:14: And talk to you soon, thank you bye-bye!
