00:00:03:

00:00:10: I think the

00:00:31: single biggest mistake, I see is that somebody in the organization typically someone from C-suite comes up with a brilliant idea.

00:00:41: They're out jogging in the morning, they are in a shower and this idea comes to their head.

00:00:46: And then say ah!

00:00:47: This is what we need do when you go into the morning and tell the head of product or engineering or whoever I've got great ideas let's build it there.

00:01:00: never any pushback no questioning asking for data nothing really.

00:01:07: just off to races.

00:01:09: Everybody's happy until it launches and its a flop.

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00:02:03: Welcome to another episode of Lead UX, your compass through the ever evolving landscape of UX leadership and UX maturity in organizations.

00:02:13: And of course The Future Of Our Profession!

00:02:16: I'm your host Dr.

00:02:17: Thomas Führinger-Kundt.

00:02:18: today i am speaking with Bill Albert.

00:02:21: he is co editor-in-chief for the Journal of User Experience and founder of Greenlight Ideal Lab And we will talk about a question every product team should ask even before the project started, why should be built this bill?

00:02:36: It's great to have you here.

00:02:38: I'm looking very much forward to talking about early product validation business risks and expanding maybe The role of UX in shaping product decisions.

00:02:47: so great to Have You on the show today.

00:02:49: Thank you for having me.

00:02:50: it's real honor to spend some time with you Thomas.

00:02:54: Thank you, thank you.

00:02:55: So as usual I start with providing some insights in the background and personal history of my guests.

00:03:03: so maybe you can talk a little bit about your path into UX?

00:03:07: And other question i ask to all of my guest what gets you up in the morning?

00:03:13: Sure um...so my-my path into Ux..I think like a lot people was Maybe a little circuitous, but not necessarily at least in terms of my mind.

00:03:26: So if you go back decades I was finishing up my PhD and started a postdoc working on the design of navigation systems and cars.

00:03:38: they were only At that time in the late nineties.

00:03:41: They are only Japan they weren't In US Europe And I was really interested in cognitive perception as it relates to using these devices while driving, et cetera.

00:03:53: And really started thinking more about experience and interface interaction cognition in how all those things go together.

00:04:05: when I finished my postdoc it was sort of the classic academia or industry...I always wanted to kind have a foot in both camps.

00:04:14: i knew that early on UX was just sort of starting out, at least in terms how we know it.

00:04:23: In fact the first team I joined is User Experience in nineteen ninety-nine.

00:04:31: so...I fell in love with that whole idea making products easy to use engaging simple and really spoke me into human behavior.

00:04:44: cognition perception decision all sort of rolled into one in a very practical way.

00:04:51: So I started that and went on to Fidelity Investments after a little while, started working with Tom Tullish who was my mentor and co-author measuring UX book.

00:05:08: from there kind of jumped over into academia running the user experience center at Bentley University And then most recently started up Greenlight Idea Lab.

00:05:20: to kind of really answer this question that you've posed is like, why should we build this thing?

00:05:27: Yeah.

00:05:29: That's interesting because we share some of the same experiences and early in our careers I stayed an automotive industry.

00:05:37: but yeah things you described also catch my attention from very beginning.

00:05:43: so task sharing the cognitive load discussions, but yeah we don't want to get too nerdy about automotive UX right now.

00:05:52: So why did you decide to leave the academic area and research area?

00:06:01: And decided not go into more of the consulting area?

00:06:07: Yeah I don't even think it is leaving because When I was at Bentley, I was running the center that you can think of like a teaching hospital for grad students in UX.

00:06:20: So we were already consulting working with clients on client projects but we are housed within a university.

00:06:37: and then went over to this agency called Mach-Forty-Nine, they do corporate venture building to run their kind of global CX program.

00:06:47: And at that time I was still writing my books and i had the journal too.

00:06:54: so it's maybe like instead of leaving is more just stepping in a little bit leaning more into consulting our industry.

00:07:07: But I sort of see that, at least a little bit in academia even to this day.

00:07:16: That's great too here.

00:07:19: so what are the experiences especially maybe in academia and early days then still as shapes?

00:07:27: The way you think about product decisions today?

00:07:32: Yeah first off going through a PhD program, it's very personal.

00:07:39: Everybody has a different experience and gets something different out of.

00:07:42: for me I think It really trained me ultimately to think critically To question

00:07:51: um

00:07:52: two Ask hard questions to demand data Um to test ideas in hypotheses Really kind of understand, use lean-on scientific method and that's sort of been a thread throughout my career.

00:08:14: I just think the way of doing things—that perspective on our work has probably been there all along.

00:08:24: The doctoral program kind brought it out almost formalized in.

00:08:30: Yeah,

00:08:33: that's interesting and I would be definitely interested in learning from you.

00:08:38: And the audience probably as well.

00:08:41: So how do you convince stakeholders to actually?

00:08:45: execute and Invest resources into research?

00:08:50: because for my experience when you yeah try to convince Your internal stakeholders about a necessity too Do maybe even a bit more extended research Activities.

00:09:03: usually you have to argue at first hand about time and budget constraints, things like that.

00:09:10: To be honest I never performed the research programs in the industry when i was back in university also on a PhD program.

00:09:20: so how do you convince your stakeholders?

00:09:22: In the industries or clients that you consult That research actually is something they can benefit from not just the cost?

00:09:31: I

00:09:32: mean, it's a wonderful question.

00:09:35: First off how do you convince?

00:09:37: I think its typically very hard.

00:09:40: A lot of people have their mind made up long before they walked in the door and everybody is little bit different.

00:09:49: The way i'm thinking about what we do Is In context of de-risk.

00:09:58: We are de-risking decisions, right?

00:10:03: Especially in the innovation space.

00:10:06: Everybody's like we have all these different ideas and we know... We think that one out of ten will be a huge success but maybe we can make two outta ten or three outta ten.

00:10:18: How do we de-risk all this investment you're putting?

00:10:22: In my mind, one of the best ways to de-risk is making sure that you're building product.

00:10:30: That you know people not just want but they need it and there's gonna be demand for it.

00:10:36: so...that sort how I'm in a last couple years kind of rethinking how I am framing now in terms of reducing their risk.

00:10:50: Yeah, so yeah.

00:10:52: Now we are already moving towards the actual topic of our episode today which is great.

00:11:00: when teams then say or also your clients maybe would decide on building something than you would I guess step in with exactly that question and challenge their decisions.

00:11:15: And I mean, once a product is the decision has been made and you're moving forward.

00:11:26: I believe that one of the best arguments Is um thinking about budget in terms Of You know A piece of the pie?

00:11:37: And your saying i want this little slice i Want one percent i want two percent to make The product better to ensure that when we launch it, people are gonna like it.

00:11:48: It's going to be easy to use its really cheap insurance.

00:11:54: and the challenge of UX research in particular is you don't have to do it.

00:12:02: You can...you need to design something right?

00:12:05: There has got to be something for people interact with at least most cases And you need to build something, but you don't have to understand the customers.

00:12:15: You don't Have to understand The use cases...you certainly Don't have To do anything to make it easy Or engaging.

00:12:26: But boy It's obviously not a good idea to go along that route.

00:12:32: So I just need A little bit of your overall budget too.

00:12:38: Make the product significantly better.

00:12:41: Most companies get it.

00:12:45: I think less and less is there sort of the argument, you know should we even do?

00:12:53: It's more nuanced stuff like okay can We just do it this way or This Way?

00:12:58: Or let's Do it at The very End And Just Sort Of Confirm Things.

00:13:03: Let'S Just Have AI Do It Now Right?

00:13:06: So Its More About How Much much research you're going to kind of devote it, how serious your gonna be about the work or is there just a check

00:13:21: box?

00:13:22: Yeah.

00:13:24: My next question would then so what are most common mistakes that team makes in such early product development phases and you mentioned AI already probably one mistake To say okay, just let AI do the early products prototypes or something like that.

00:13:48: Yeah

00:13:50: So I think The single biggest mistake.

00:13:56: That's me that I see.

00:14:00: Is that?

00:14:02: Somebody in the organization typically somebody in a C-suite Comes up with a brilliant idea there out jogging in the morning, they're in this shower and this idea comes to their head.

00:14:16: And they say ah!

00:14:17: This is what we need to do.

00:14:19: um...and they go into the morning and tell you know..the Head of Product or Engineering or whoever saying I've got a great idea let's build this and there's never any pushback There's no questioning anything, and it's really just off to the races.

00:14:43: And everybody is happy until It launches in its a flop.

00:14:49: So The biggest mistake Is Kind of blindly following Something without questioning Especially from A solution standpoint.

00:15:06: One Of my favorite Quotes Yuri, something from Waze said

00:15:13: fall

00:15:13: in love with a problem not the solution.

00:15:17: And that just it perfectly encapsulates it right?

00:15:20: People really fell in love of solutions!

00:15:24: It's much easier to fall in Love With A Solution...it's much harder to say ah this is a real problem.

00:15:29: um This Is A Problem That'S Worth Solving.

00:15:33: Let'S Figure It Out.

00:15:37: It's a different mindset.

00:15:38: I think it is more mature mindset.

00:15:41: and just to wrap this thought up, one of the reasons why some people get really locked into particular solution especially at senior leadership level A brilliant visionary like Steve Jobs and no one told Steve jobs is, I just came up with this idea.

00:16:13: And we should do that.

00:16:15: so it's kind of in a weird way i think very much working against our field.

00:16:21: um In how Decisions are made if that makes sense.

00:16:26: Yeah absolutely mean.

00:16:28: Of course We have to admit That Apple products are successful in the end.

00:16:32: So there must have been something right with his visionary thinking, but yeah of course I mean reality.

00:16:40: so often we see teams relying on internal convictions and yes they see our ideas instead.

00:16:50: One reason might be maybe the working culture or let's say, the culture of questioning opinions off your superiors are something like that.

00:17:01: So what was your view on this?

00:17:04: Why do so many teams rely on these internal convictions?

00:17:14: I think it is overall a culture.

00:17:18: relying upon them as the safe thing to Your superior is asking you to do something and you do

00:17:25: it.

00:17:29: You have something the show for.

00:17:31: there's some outcome even if it's not a desirable outcome.

00:17:34: You can say yes, we did this.

00:17:39: It's hard to push back.

00:17:40: I mean that.

00:17:41: that's though The truth of it.

00:17:42: in a lot of people in UX Most people are

00:17:46: not

00:17:48: at That c-suite level.

00:17:51: right they're at the VP, maybe senior VP but mostly they're not EVPs.

00:17:58: They are not C-suite and it's hard to push back.

00:18:05: I mean that we all especially nowadays... We don't want our job or lose our jobs were about saying yes I think that's, at least in my mind.

00:18:22: I'm sure there are other things play as well but to me is sort of the dominant narrative and all this.

00:18:33: Yeah you know...I like your approach with arguing about getting a small slice off cake only budget wise or something else.

00:18:45: late changes are much way more important, expensive than early changes and things like that.

00:18:51: So maybe if we try to argue talk in the stakeholders language so business-related terms this might be a solution because as you say of course UX people not very often in sea level positions a seat at the table, at eye level.

00:19:16: So yeah any other ideas or hints from your experience how we even can support um The C-suite to invest into research if we are on a head of level or something like that?

00:19:32: our team lead level

00:19:34: Yeah so one.

00:19:38: When you asked me the question about my background, like how did I get here?

00:19:41: I really kind of glossed over.

00:19:43: one of the dominant themes in my career has been around data and specifically metrics.

00:19:48: Um...I've always been kind-of data focused.

00:19:54: I generally don't trust my intuition because i'm often wrong And then I trust data that's not from me.

00:20:06: Early on in my career, I really thought okay this is what senior leadership means.

00:20:11: If they just have the data They'll be able to make smart decisions if we show them Really solid metrics of you know comparing two different products or whatever it is.

00:20:26: And i guess that was I don't know, i'm sure.

00:20:31: I was naive in some respects and In some cases yes that they listen to the data They made the right decisions but in other cases?

00:20:39: They didn't.

00:20:40: they really didn't Listened to the date even though they didn't question it.

00:20:44: there were so many other things That they were trying to think of.

00:20:47: There was you Know The politics and there was other aspects that are influencing decision-making which I can appreciate.

00:20:59: oftentimes we don't have visibility on.

00:21:03: So I think what can i do or what can a UX researcher do that they have control over?

00:21:11: And first, it's data speaking using metrics especially outcome-based metrics of the care about and its telling us story Telling a story that they can understand.

00:21:27: telling the story is compelling and engaging gets them.

00:21:32: Emotionally drawn into what you're doing or what this product about.

00:21:37: I think those two things together are very powerful.

00:21:41: in maybe the third thing it's also took me little while to learn my career, The short game is like I'm gonna tell you exactly how you need to change this product and You have to do it.

00:22:00: This way my way or the highway, and they're very insistent And in the process they make They're not making any friends.

00:22:13: the long game is about building relationship and That to me is really the key.

00:22:20: this It reduces the friction.

00:22:24: Um, in everything that you do is having good relationships with everybody.

00:22:31: You're working with relationships built on trust, trust that you share the same interests and that you're going to do their right thing a good job?

00:22:44: And to the extent that you can build relationships with people on the marketing side development or engineering design, whoever it is that you're working with on a day-to-day basis will go along long way.

00:23:04: Yeah so especially in early phases then as you say not much about the right evidence which might even be hard to provide but yeah too.

00:23:17: build relationship and influence.

00:23:21: Yeah, I like that in a long term process and maybe also then agree to second best decisions.

00:23:33: Maybe but you know not too endangered the relationship.

00:23:37: or how would should somebody solve this dilemma?

00:23:46: the best solution for our customers.

00:23:48: But if I would enforce a change, then yes that their relationship will be heard.

00:23:56: so how can you deal with that dilemma?

00:23:58: That as a researcher might begin in certain cases...

00:24:05: In my time at Bentley University i mentored probably over hundred graduate students and often say pick your battles right.

00:24:14: is this Is this the hill you want to die on, To move the button to the left?

00:24:21: Right.

00:24:21: And really go for what is going to significantly impact user experience right and focus on that.

00:24:34: everything else.

00:24:35: as to me it's kind of a nice to have but if he'd gone in there with maybe they'll only do a few things that don't really matter.

00:24:47: It will dilute what you're saying, focus on the big stuff that really

00:24:52: matters

00:24:53: and if they can't do it understand why?

00:24:57: And develop a roadmap!

00:25:00: Okay this is where we want to get

00:25:03: like...

00:25:03: Do agree are we share the same vision?

00:25:07: Great now let's Next year, let's do this and then the following you to do.

00:25:12: This And then eventually we'll get there right.

00:25:15: but as long as you have a roadmap in your implementing You don't have to do it all at once.

00:25:21: But if you're focused on on the minutiae that doesn't matter.

00:25:26: It's really probably doing yourself and your organization A little bit of a disservice

00:25:32: Yeah.

00:25:32: So yeah, even then as a researcher we have to think more strategically and not only you know focus too much on the data.

00:25:46: it's things like that.

00:25:48: And actually what I'm saying is sort of reminds me if there was several pivotal moments in

00:25:57: my career

00:26:00: I had was maybe five years ago.

00:26:06: This is when i was at Bentley and we have

00:26:09: a client

00:26:10: that they're called DrinkWorks, if you are familiar with in the

00:26:16: U.S.,

00:26:16: We Have Curig Coffee Machines And You Are Up There In Espresso.

00:26:21: Put The Pot In Close It Outcomes Your Coffee.

00:26:26: This Was A Joint Venture Between Curig & Anheuser Busch alcohol beer manufacturer.

00:26:34: And the idea was to have cocktails, right?

00:26:37: So you put in um... The Margarita Cosmopolitan Mosca Mule.

00:26:41: You shut it and like tonic and club soda and water on your back It mixes your cocktail and boy isn't that great!

00:26:50: They asked us to test them.

00:26:52: Um.. The machine is beautiful really elegant simple use.

00:27:00: And then people started saying, okay and they even tried it.

00:27:05: We had special permission with IRB for them to have a sip of

00:27:08: alcohol.".

00:27:10: Then they would say why?

00:27:14: Why would I do this like...I sort of enjoy making cocktails from my friends when they come over for dinner.

00:27:24: They really started asking these questions about why.

00:27:28: This is to your question-why should we build?

00:27:31: and there really wasn't a compelling use case.

00:27:36: And I went back to the client, I said like listen this is some feedback we're hearing pretty consistently...and they said well imagine you own a boat!

00:27:47: You are having people over on the boat but don't have room for all those cocktails?

00:27:52: And i'm thinking boy if that's your first use-case that you talk about as making cocktails for people that come over, I'm thinking you're in trouble.

00:28:07: And sure enough within a year they went out of business and so that really spurred my thought about like listen...I only have whatever five seven years from my career left.

00:28:20: i don't want to waste it building product that isn't solving a problem At my stage, I just don't have the patience anymore.

00:28:35: And so i'm like okay...I want to get as far upstream as I can!

00:28:41: I want to answer the question should we build it and stop bad products from getting out?

00:28:50: Um..and make sure that good products are um....getting into the

00:28:56: market.".

00:28:56: So that sort of was evolution of my thinking spurred on by that one particular project.

00:29:06: That's a great example and I can imagine, it is completely different use case in the office.

00:29:12: you want to get your coffee quickly?

00:29:14: You don't wanna mess up with all the ingredients and the coffee powder but as we said with cocktails its more about preparing the cocktail.

00:29:27: Yeah, yeah of course totally different application or use case.

00:29:32: and you mentioned UX upstream Discussions.

00:29:37: And that's also something I think the listeners are concerned with.

00:29:41: how can we as your accesses Can contribute to those decisions much earlier?

00:29:46: I mean in The example you talked about the product i understood was already There.

00:29:54: at least a prototype was there You could experiment with.

00:29:57: But best case, we would consult our clients or your client even before they build a prototype and think about if the event should move into that direction.

00:30:11: So how can we contribute earlier?

00:30:15: And convince our organizations of benefit having UX people already in early stages of product development?

00:30:26: It's a wonderful question.

00:30:31: The ideal scenario for me is, the client comes to us and they say we want to play in this space.

00:30:41: We sort of know the guardrails were looking for opportunities to innovate within the space Were focused or thinking about...we have some hypotheses.

00:30:52: what are customer pains?

00:30:56: we would like to learn more about them.

00:30:58: We'd like to validate those pains and then start ideating new product ideas around those pains, that's the right way to do it understanding really having a deep understanding of customers and validating The pain.

00:31:19: most products well over ninety percent of products are there to sort of solve a pain To reduce affriction remove a barrier whatever you call.

00:31:31: That is really the biggest value that we can do.

00:31:39: Do that in order to answer the question, yes you should build this or no you shouldn't?

00:31:46: So sometimes they do come with us like okay We've done that.

00:31:51: now we have some ideas.

00:31:53: We have some early concepts and want know which one was strongest if any and to do a really good pressure test of those concepts, right?

00:32:07: That's another good use for UX researcher.

00:32:13: is that's the upstream part.

00:32:16: Once things are starting to get designed it's very different hat you're wearing.

00:32:27: You already have evidence to support that.

00:32:30: there's going to be a demand.

00:32:31: And now you're trying to make this product easy and engaging, beautiful

00:32:36: etc.,

00:32:36: That is really important!

00:32:38: I worked in the space for a long time but i just want get as far upstream as possible by looking at what we call Product Market Fit right?

00:32:52: To which extent will develop into a significant market for them.

00:33:04: I have two follow-up questions about that, so first you mentioned this pressure test approach.

00:33:13: can talk more on how to perform such a pressure test together and get some valid not data but results that you can be confident in.

00:33:29: Sure, so at Greenlight the way we think about it terms of early product validation is three phases.

00:33:42: We validate customer pain and we validate value proposition or idea And then we validate the product solution.

00:33:56: Validating customer pain is going to come through the classic methods around a lot of customer interviews, talking to potential customers in a lot different scenarios.

00:34:08: We're doing actually more and more in-the field and going out where people are into them especially at age of AI.

00:34:19: we don't rely on surveys.

00:34:20: nearly as much is validating that the pain is severe, it happens a lot.

00:34:31: It's prevalent among a wide audience and there's no other way to solve that pain right?

00:34:38: Once we do that We know like...we have a pain.

00:34:41: That Is kind of The foundation Of our building.

00:34:45: Then when we go through ideation..We come up with A lot of different ideas And then we want To pressure test the value propositions.

00:34:56: Right that could be in the form of storyboards concept cards landing pages super low fidelity And we're looking for Signal around.

00:35:10: does this resonate?

00:35:12: is this delivering value?

00:35:13: Is this solving the pain that you told us about earlier?

00:35:16: right?

00:35:18: and That is Absolutely critical, and when we are validating value props, we are starting to go from what people say.

00:35:30: To What they do and We start looking for behavioral signals right?

00:35:38: And Behavioral signals can be anywhere From when.

00:35:43: think of it is like a ladder Of commitment.

00:35:45: from.

00:35:47: Here's my email.

00:35:48: tell me When It's going to Be released too.

00:35:51: I want to set up A demo For Me for My boss.

00:35:55: I want to sign an MOU or an LOI.

00:36:04: Here's my credit card, right?

00:36:06: So there are all these different levels of commitment and when we go from value prop into the product solution We really need strong behavioral signals To know that there is going be a demand.

00:36:21: The customer has to give something up.

00:36:27: People really want it.

00:36:28: They will tell you, It's lovely and they like it that in that they will use it.

00:36:34: And they know you've worked hard and at your baby and there are not gonna...they're not going to insult it anyway.

00:36:45: What people are telling us?

00:36:46: At that stage we basically don't listen too.

00:36:49: We only listened to Behavior that we can observe and not just any behavior but behavior.

00:36:56: That is costing them time reputation or money at the end of today.

00:37:02: so um, that Is really where?

00:37:04: The pressure test is But We need to listen To what they say At the pain stage.

00:37:10: in order too.

00:37:11: You know we Can't ask somebody at the pain Stage oh if there was a product like this Would you buy it?

00:37:19: Oh, sure.

00:37:20: Of course I would buy it like they'll tell you that but It's not really worth anything.

00:37:26: Yeah very true yeah.

00:37:28: So what did it looks?

00:37:30: Like or it sounds like there are more.

00:37:33: the qualitative Way of research is needed in and then early phases right.

00:37:39: so you do not have Really?

00:37:42: Yeah those hard facts or data that you can run statistical analysis or things like that.

00:37:48: It's more on the qualitative side, I guess in the very beginning.

00:37:52: Yes and no?

00:37:54: Normally we're dealing... We try to get larger sample size so that we can do some stats of them at a very early stage.

00:38:03: And then as you move into solution stages You'll be able to do a lot of experimentation A-B tests things like that much larger sample sizes To have kind of a more reliable signal.

00:38:19: I think of myself a little bit more quant than qual, but probably in my core I mix methods.

00:38:27: So at each stage i'm always thinking about you know qual and quant because they both do one thing really well enough.

00:38:35: the other things

00:38:37: yeah.

00:38:37: so then it's about deciding which method is right for certain.

00:38:43: Let's say a research question.

00:38:44: Yeah, the

00:38:45: combination of what are the strongest combinations methods?

00:38:50: So yeah.

00:38:50: and the second question I had in mind when you talked about this pressure testing at early stages support is there something that would capture or see as new role for your ex-researcher?

00:39:08: um existing roles?

00:39:10: because that of course I mean we have a lot of discussions going on right now about the changing role of UX as a profession and things like that.

00:39:18: so is this something uh UX researchers bring already to the table from your point of view or something they should learn?

00:39:27: Well, first off i think every organization needs They have to do this, otherwise they're just wasting a lot of resources time and money.

00:39:40: In terms of the role of UX I would say a vast majority are not either thinking about this or they're not doing much about it because they assume some other group is doing it by the time It gets into the UX team.

00:39:56: The decision was already made To move forward with This product idea even if its Just A concept.

00:40:03: Um, I would strongly suggest you've asked questions about how do we?

00:40:11: How do we know that people want this thing?

00:40:13: when we launch it there's going to be a demand for what data evidence.

00:40:17: You have to support that and trying to get yourself at the table with those decisions are being made.

00:40:23: push your self upstream just push it right.

00:40:28: no one is gonna be inviting new To The Table.

00:40:31: kind of.

00:40:32: push people aside a little bit and make room for yourself.

00:40:35: And start to ask these questions in proposed ways of doing it, too.

00:40:43: answer that question in a very efficient reliable way.

00:40:47: they'll start listening to you.

00:40:50: so yes I think most US don't do it!

00:40:55: They really should because as you mentioned Thomas position and you know, in the age of AI when I can do so much design work now it's not bad.

00:41:12: And they could even evaluate product things like that.

00:41:16: Um...AI

00:41:19: can't very at least right now really tell whether there is going to be a real demand for this product or I think at least it buys you some time in what your doing and provides more value to your organization or a new set of values.

00:41:44: Yeah,

00:41:46: that's interesting.

00:41:47: So what I hear is from your explanations and also mentioning AI in the context of that.

00:41:55: Also for us as a profession it would be strategically clever to focus on this early decision making processes because yeah i cannot do it.

00:42:07: And then something where usually human beings and the interaction with customers is still needed.

00:42:17: So, The new skill set which is needed as maybe not applying more methods or other methods but it's about how you position yourself inside of your organization right.

00:42:32: so be a bit more brave to speak up at also high-level decision making meetings, for example.

00:42:43: Yeah I mean methods at the end of day are ways or tools to answer questions.

00:42:50: and i'm focused on a question.

00:42:53: we already know all the methods.

00:42:55: ive used them all.

00:42:56: they're great.

00:42:58: but what is this central question that this organization needs?

00:43:10: And that's sort of the lens which I'm looking at my work.

00:43:16: But yeah, quite often what I hear and think others here as well in organizations is people say we are experts but know our customer wants things like this.

00:43:29: so how would you... What will be your counter argument?

00:43:42: You know, I think if you start throwing out all data around bias and We see what we want to see.

00:43:56: All these different things that kind of Shape how we look?

00:44:01: I can only point it myself and say

00:44:04: boy

00:44:05: i was wrong.

00:44:06: just circling back to that first story I told you about the navigation systems, i thought there's no way they would be popular in the

00:44:15: U.S.,

00:44:16: maybe Europe but not in the US like we all know where were going.

00:44:22: and uh could have been more wrong...I don't trust myself.

00:44:26: um..i just know from data it is hard for me see customer preferences Because maybe I have a really strong preference one way, but most people Have a preference another way whatever it is It's too risky to say.

00:44:46: I know the customer and Maybe they do But maybe they know one slice really well, but there's a much bigger Part of the pie that they can't even see right?

00:44:58: And The worst case as you do that and then they can say i told You so Right in the best cases you have a clear, crisper more accurate definition of who the customer is.

00:45:14: You may be able to identify new market opportunities too by identifying in new markets.

00:45:21: so there's a lot of upside not much downside and hopefully people's ego can just Be a little bit in check where they could be open.

00:45:35: Navigation systems is really a good example, because I think in the end nowadays at least using navigation system it's not that much about know how to drive from A to B but know where traffic jams are and how to avoid traffic james.

00:45:52: And probably something people haven't thought of at very beginning with the first set-nav systems It was, as he said just solving your way finding problem which you don't have in daily commuting because You know your rate to work usually but you do not know where the traffic jams are.

00:46:14: Yeah In nineteen ninety seven ninety eight nine dating myself That never.

00:46:19: that thought never occurred to me.

00:46:21: even though it's such a problem.

00:46:23: No one likes to sit and traffic right.

00:46:25: there is a pain.

00:46:27: Sitting in traffic like how can I get home faster?

00:46:30: Um, so I can be with my family at dinner time.

00:46:34: Right?

00:46:36: That's the job to be done whatever.

00:46:38: So never occurred to me.

00:46:44: that's why i say that you know...I don't trust myself in THAT respect!

00:46:51: I know how to answer questions and do methodology but um yeah.

00:46:59: Yeah A couple of minutes ago we started a bit talking about this business related topics, sort-of business value.

00:47:11: Of early research and yeah you provided us great example just asking for little small part of the cake with all the research activities you want to perform.

00:47:25: So maybe we can focus a little bit more on those topics, so how can we connect our work and this early work through the return of invests in things like that?

00:47:38: And business cases... Is there possibility already argue numbers at an earlier stage validation?

00:47:50: If you have the opportunity, get to know your CFO.

00:47:59: Try to learn as best you can the models that they're using especially models around expenditure

00:48:11: around

00:48:12: building new product and what are the assumptions?

00:48:18: And go them say like okay listen either reduce the time or instead of building four products, only one is successful.

00:48:34: What would that do in terms of our revenue?

00:48:37: And start playing around with those different numbers and say I did this about a year ago at CFO and it was mind blowing!

00:48:48: The ROI on what we through the roof.

00:48:53: It's almost unbelievable and I generally don't lead with that because one is there are assumptions, two it so extreme people not really believing in to be honest but they often times will come to conclusion boy if we just did this for.

00:49:21: and then they start thinking about scaling.

00:49:23: What if that was for two or four, eight products?

00:49:26: That's something I would as a UX person is find out who your CFO is.

00:49:33: see if you can ask them to lunch get to know them And sit down with him in understanding how he make all these calculations.

00:49:46: Yeah, and the benefit would also be then that you have an ally in The C suite which then also helps you to argue In yeah.

00:49:56: In the desired direction about the topics.

00:50:00: You want a land?

00:50:02: It's super good advice!

00:50:11: If we think about, or I know that some of the listeners are not yet in very up-level career phases so they may be considering taking next careers steps and so on.

00:50:26: So if you look back at yourself What would be an advice to younger your ex-professionals or even people maybe thinking about if they should move into your ex because nowadays we also see a lot of discussions.

00:50:45: If it's still worth it, is the good career path you choose?

00:50:49: So what would be your advice to young your ex professionals thinking back to your personal

00:50:55: experiences?".

00:50:57: Yeah so you raised two questions.

00:50:59: The first question as much easier answer For early career UX professionals, what are some things that they can do to advance their career?

00:51:09: The harder the bigger question is somebody coming out of undergraduate or wanting to make a career move should they get into UX.

00:51:21: Let me take up the first question first.

00:51:24: for early-career people I would say from my helped me the most, thinking back.

00:51:34: One is I was sort of lucky in The People I Was Around.

00:51:40: Um...I briefly mentioned Tom Tallis at the very beginning.

00:51:45: He was heading up to UX Group at Fideli Investments where he worked for seven years and really got to not just know him but work with him.

00:51:54: We wrote two books together we did a lot of work together And he was very much a mentor Um, and I'm very fortunate in that way.

00:52:03: And there was other people too of my career where just learned a tremendous amount from um.

00:52:09: The second thing is i think i always Kind of pushed myself a little bit.

00:52:15: i was always trying to ask questions.

00:52:17: i was never Just about doing A job right it you know It's like a job versus a career.

00:52:24: i wanted a career?

00:52:25: I didn't want a Job.

00:52:27: I wanted to be thinking about this on the weekend, and I want to come up with new ideas.

00:52:31: And ask questions that hadn't been asked

00:52:33: before.".

00:52:34: Um...and i think that curiosity really helped a lot!

00:52:39: That's maybe more an internal thing.

00:52:45: Maybe the last thing that helped me was-I always kind of saw new opportunities whether it within or outside my organization.

00:52:56: I never wanted to say no, because I wouldn't feel comfortable.

00:53:00: Right?

00:53:00: So I was always trying to put myself out there risking my whatever... My ego and reputation anything in getting on of my comfort zone And that kind perspective is really helpful for me.

00:53:21: That's a little bit different other questions.

00:53:26: Should somebody young get into UX?

00:53:30: That is a really tough question because I don't know what else you're thinking about and there are many, many wonderful careers obviously.

00:53:38: um i'll just tell you what drew me to UX and maybe this will resonate with some of you as at the end of the day when I was really interested in perception, cognition behavior and decision-making.

00:53:58: That sort of thread And it just so happened that you could think about how people perceive in thinking about products or interactions In how that leads to their experience and decision making.

00:54:18: It gave a very good context to explore that narrative for me.

00:54:29: My dissertation was in Spatial Cognition and all of this, it's just so abstract.

00:54:35: UX gave me something where I satisfied both my needs—the intellectual need but also the need to feel practical about what I'm doing is going be used as helpful to people academia, industry balance.

00:54:57: So that's what drew me to it.

00:55:01: The challenge now I think for a lot of younger folks is AI and What does AI mean?

00:55:08: For this...I Think It Is A Tough Time To Get In No Question.

00:55:14: I Do Think That Research Does Need To Happen.

00:55:20: It Will Continue But You're Just Gonna Have To Do More With Less and lean on AI more.

00:55:27: That's just the reality, people are gonna expect more And if you're able to demonstrate The value that you bring to an organization They'll listen in though they'll respond positively.

00:55:43: But You know If your considering a career medicine or law whatever it is those all

00:55:51: have trade-offs.

00:55:51: You have to ask yourself, is this going be a fulfilling career in the long term for me?

00:55:57: So...

00:55:58: Yeah great yeah thank you that's great advice definitely for many of our listeners I'm one hundred percent sure.

00:56:04: so if we now would wrap up our conversation uh We started with the question why should we build this as a super important topic?

00:56:14: and Yeah, advice product teams.

00:56:21: What should they do if they want better innovation decisions?

00:56:24: what would be something like a key takeaway statement to wrap up our discussion today?

00:56:34: One is Pressure.

00:56:37: test your assumptions as strong as you can.

00:56:43: Don't don't listen to what people are saying.

00:56:47: Look at what they're doing And start early.

00:56:54: build your product based on problems, customer pain that is really severe.

00:57:03: That people don't just want it fixed or solved.

00:57:09: they need It.

00:57:10: there has to be a need for it.

00:57:13: then you're going.

00:57:14: Then You're gonna Be successful.

00:57:15: you'll achieve product market fit but those things together are absolutely critical.

00:57:21: with Now, I just want to acknowledge there are other things that determine product success.

00:57:29: There's studies around willingness-to-pay and your go-to market strategy in you're business model is incredibly important.

00:57:37: but without Product Market Fit—without a demand none of them matters!

00:57:45: You have to have that right?

00:57:47: You've got customers so get start to think about your business model and how you're going.

00:57:57: roll this out, is it?

00:57:58: Yeah.

00:57:59: Great thanks a lot.

00:58:00: so if now our listeners want to dig deeper into all those questions where can they learn more about Greenlight Idealab and get in contact?

00:58:11: also

00:58:13: Thanks for the plug website greenlightidealab.com.

00:58:20: We also have a pretty active LinkedIn company page.

00:58:25: Connect with me on LinkedIn, Bill Albert and yeah.

00:58:31: so we're trying to be in social media.

00:58:34: share what were learning want hear from you.

00:58:37: definitely reach out if any questions or talk about this.

00:58:41: I'm happy.

00:58:42: continue the conversation.

00:58:44: Yeah, great.

00:58:45: And of course I will put the links to the website and also your LinkedIn profile To show notes things.

00:58:51: people can look it up there.

00:58:52: Sorry Thomas one more unrelated plug is The Journal of User Experience.

00:58:57: It's the only peer-reviewed journal in the UX space uxpajournal.org.

00:59:05: We just redesigned our website so its still getting fleshed out So bear with us.

00:59:11: but it's twenty three, twenty four years of research by the UX community that is all peer-reviewed and free for everybody.

00:59:21: Great!

00:59:22: Thank you.

00:59:23: so yeah It was really great having you on LeadUX The US Experience Leadership Circle today thanks to your practical insights Bill.

00:59:32: also a hint into the journal definitely super valuable.

00:59:37: And yeah, this I think was a really practical look at how UX can shape better product decisions in early stages.

00:59:48: Before the build starts decide if it's worth or not.

00:59:52: so thanks for having you today

00:59:53: on the show.

00:59:55: Thank You!

00:59:55: This is alot of fun and i enjoyed

00:59:57: our conversation.

00:59:58: Yeah likewise then Thanks a lot and enjoy your day Bye.