00:00:03: What brought us together somehow was a talk you gave called Beyond the Experience Designing for Impact.
00:00:37: Yeah, I mean starting as a designer you're always someone being asked about the aesthetics right?
00:00:43: Like we work within certain technology and like you can surely beautify it or there's that slide at its so important for business.
00:00:50: We should absolutely show the best we can And then in big organizations would tend to invest lot of money into what they think was good design.
00:01:00: And then if two users are using the application we're making beautiful, that's than a question of business outcome time and finances as well.
00:01:09: So shortly like few months ago in London I gave this same talk which enriched with different types of personas i was dealing within my career outside their organization.
00:01:18: it doesn't only help me but also helps others to understand better what they do.
00:01:23: again being asked for aesthetic is not thing bad.
00:01:26: people come from good intent but allow them to learn a little bit more behind it, because the beauty is there's still last drop of it and you can always add on.
00:01:34: At Horizons, we focus on the development of leading forces in the field of user experience design through transformative retreats and coaching programs.
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00:02:20: Inform yourself at www.horizons.community via our modules and look for suitable terms or locations.
00:02:29: The places are deliberately limited to allow a reliable atmosphere and an open and practical exchange of safe spaces with other leading powers.
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00:02:45: Welcome to another episode of Lead UX, the user experience leadership circle.
00:02:50: Your compass through the ever-evolving landscape of UX Leadership and UX maturity in organizations.
00:02:57: I'm your host Dr Thomas Wilinger Kuntt And today i am joined by Elie Carlin who's talked beyond.
00:03:03: the experience invites us To look past screens and aesthetics and towards design that creates real impact.
00:03:12: We will explore how UX leadership helps teams move from making things beautiful to shaping decisions, collaborations and outcome.
00:03:21: So Ellie really great to have you on the show today!
00:03:24: Thanks so much for having me excited about this talk.
00:03:28: Yeah, great... So Ellie You are a director UX design at Novartis in Switzerland?
00:03:32: Maybe you can introduce what brought your there And what motivates you get up in the morning.
00:03:39: Perfect.
00:03:40: Yeah, that's a good start.
00:03:41: So I've started visual arts and design back in Zagreb Croatia And been working in diverse studios and agencies there had my own little studio as well and was mainly focusing on the corporate identity and prints some of it being digital design Aswell.
00:03:57: at that time i believe when i was twenty-two i started my first printable product.
00:04:05: he Was a paper planner and i started to work with diverse client as a freelancer.
00:04:10: And I realized like that the design is something that i really struggle with, it takes a lot of iterations and I told myself I will surely never work in this field.
00:04:20: but then I got a great offer from Basel and one of the smallest clients searched for the design support.
00:04:25: so I said okay let's give it a go!
00:04:27: That was my first client at Basel where the collaboration went smoothly when they opened many new doors which I decided to buy on way ticket firstly because I really love the city and secondly, they're probably better work opportunities over here.
00:04:45: So that journey goes back to my courage where i actually lived for seven months in bed on breakfast!
00:04:52: I rented a desk at the Digital Agency which offered me a job there.
00:04:57: And then today I'm waking up every day working as an artist.
00:05:02: I was starting as a UX designer and UX design leader, now leading the small group of talented UX design people.
00:05:11: What gets me up is like every day you challenge working in a big corporate... There isn't data.
00:05:17: that's the same.
00:05:18: so we never get to live the same date twice.
00:05:21: The organization is so big!
00:05:23: And yeah there everything something new for think-of.
00:05:27: And I guess at the moment, I really feel like i'm getting up also for my team.
00:05:31: that is amazing there.
00:05:33: Really truly enjoy collaborating with them.
00:05:36: so like my first or second sip of coffee and conversation with them in the start of the day it's definitely something that makes me great
00:05:44: awesome.
00:05:44: yeah That's a really great path.
00:05:46: and yes Also brave how brave you were to just go and take The opportunity as it came up.
00:05:53: So that's really also maybe good advice.
00:05:56: aspiring leaders as well, just do it
00:05:59: and see what happens.
00:06:01: I mean, too much thinking never brought me somewhere unless it's really about the UX challenges.
00:06:06: But in my life decisions was always a good gut feeling.
00:06:11: that brought where am today.
00:06:13: and yeah... The advice would be just like follow-it not completely losing your head right?
00:06:18: Like stand still on the ground!
00:06:20: It is best thing to do than now when having family think of different.
00:06:26: so i'm glad did at time.
00:06:29: Yeah, that's I believe so.
00:06:31: So yeah what brought us together somehow was a talk you gave which is called Beyond the Experience Designing for Impact and you argue that UXs are not just about creating beautiful products but it also has an impact on the teams and businesses as well.
00:06:58: And that's something I promote in this podcast, very much so... But how did you realize this shift?
00:07:10: Yeah,
00:07:11: like I've always...I mean starting as a designer you're someone being asked about the aesthetics right?
00:07:17: Like so at that time also people were passing by my desk.
00:07:21: it was still pre-COVID where he would be like ah!
00:07:24: You are that person who can make my application look beautiful, like.
00:07:28: or we work within a certain technology and you can surely beautify it.
00:07:32: Or there's that slide at its so important for the business which should absolutely show the best we can.
00:07:38: And then obviously by the time getting many more beautifying requests I realized but what is beauty if no one will use it?
00:07:47: Then in big organizations we would tend to invest lot of money into what we think was a good design.
00:07:55: And then if two users are using the application, you're making beautiful.
00:07:59: that's been the question of business outcome time and finances as well.
00:08:04: so yeah it like few years ago.
00:08:06: I've already started to talk about beauty in business needs versus user need.
00:08:11: Then shortly... A few months ago in London i gave same talk with different types personas within my career.
00:08:21: Yeah, it seems to be like a nice educating piece.
00:08:24: It got socialized quite a lot within the organization outside of the organization.
00:08:28: I think... ...it doesn't only help me but also helps others understand better what we do.
00:08:32: and again being asked for aesthetic is nothing bad.
00:08:36: People come from good intent But allow them learn more behind that because there's still last drop in beauty you can always add on.
00:08:45: Yeah, we come to those personas that you created a bit later and throughout our conversation of course because they're quite memorable.
00:08:52: also the names.
00:08:53: You gave them.
00:08:54: I like a lot but so in the beginning off your talk will make up or not?
00:09:00: Your makeup.
00:09:00: you present those two extremes kind of soul making something beautiful on one hand side On the other hand, focusing on impact only.
00:09:11: So how do you balance those two extremes in your daily work?
00:09:17: Yeah so I mean it is quite difficult to manage delivery expectations of business and beauty needs but i'm trying really bring user into picture.
00:09:33: So telling like there is that me business need or a business out whom we want to achieve But for whom are we achieving it?
00:09:39: so I'm trying To get away with the lot of either already pre-done research Or like getting a little bit off The other budget or time to do a little further investigation about the user needs too kind Of said, like It's all right.
00:09:53: That we need that but what is the evidence or What Is the why behind it?
00:09:56: so once We figure that out i think its much easier to go back to it.
00:10:00: we cannot really drift Drives from our journey, we know for whom and if the why is strong enough.
00:10:06: So yeah I'm like by the years now in the enterprise i am trying to really spend some time on understanding The Why And spent some time On the rationale of why We are building something and also saying that look That's all great but let us come back To see For Whom Are We Doing?
00:10:24: actually be using the application or whatever we are building for them, right?
00:10:29: So I'm just trying to talk a little bit more.
00:10:32: As you might notice in every profession but especially in UXD communication is super important aspect of it.
00:10:40: Yeah so i'm trying.
00:10:42: every challenges and new challenge And probably every conversation needs Another way of approaching depending with whom we talk.
00:10:50: yeah also I think targeting your Conversation to the stakeholders is quite important.
00:10:58: So depending on who you talk too, I guess different topics are more important than others?
00:11:04: Yes it's a complex world and what helps them?
00:11:06: also that they feel heard about what they think they need but then still trying to figure out with the team this what we've heard might be an assumption.
00:11:16: so how do we go back?
00:11:18: see if there was real need of their that can really stand behind.
00:11:23: So yeah, just being there listening them understanding their needs trying to support the best we can and also try to bring a little bit of an evidence into their entire story.
00:11:32: To see how things would work.
00:11:34: actually
00:11:36: You mentioned your personas that you created already, so maybe we can have a bit closer look at them.
00:11:44: Do you want to just introduce them?
00:11:46: Yes!
00:11:47: Just let me have a look of their concrete names.
00:11:50: now I miss it from my talk and then thinking what is this... I remember the Sally.
00:12:01: Yeah, Sally doubtful?
00:12:02: Yes, Sally was dealing with organizational differentiation so her perception of a specific role within their enterprise would be totally different to a perception from someone else.
00:12:14: and there is this great scheme that tells maybe Sally will perceive designers as magicians whereas she would like perceive developers who are doing something in the corner, right?
00:12:27: So Sally was someone with whom you would design and she will most likely seek designers to search for validation of her approach.
00:12:35: And confirmation on their approach.
00:12:36: so there is those people that come to you when they basically searched or someone to tell ya You did it right way.
00:12:44: actually That's how we should be done.
00:12:45: and those people They don't mean bad Those are send us the designs to just review and give like a bullet proof what they did.
00:12:56: But I think Sally would be someone who actually need an education about the end-to-end UX design process, understand why some of things aren't beauty or aesthetics?
00:13:08: Yes then we talked about Joe Bitter.
00:13:11: And Joe Bitter is also a special kind of person because no matter the application, no matter technology used he would always think that he knows what user needs and when they come to point where actually struggle with something it will be users fault.
00:13:25: We have to train them further.
00:13:27: you see this in Bing enterprises like oh the user has been trained on the special system or special applications.
00:13:34: but if the user had already been trained then means not intuitive enough.
00:13:38: I'm saying there are no complex solutions in.
00:13:40: training is completely useless.
00:13:42: It's just like we would have to understand if it really the training, for example creating a special type of content has to upload that content and can't find a button to upload the content.
00:13:53: then there are jobs.
00:13:54: they're doing That not a training issue but complete visibility or accessibility issues on the front-end.
00:14:03: Then we will also have Jill Nudging.
00:14:05: And the Jill nudging is really lovely one because he means well, but can often overpromise and underdeliver.
00:14:13: That comes with a great power as designers also like AI.
00:14:18: today we can prototype so many things We can promise so many thing But then when it come to limitations in feasibility you cant deliver half of that's not right way.
00:14:31: Yeah, there are those people that go around and tell like everything is gonna be great And in six twelve months time we're going to have a fully automated application for I don't know Legal reviews but you'd know this.
00:14:46: In order for these two happen the efforts needs to be really high.
00:14:49: So yeah all of them.
00:14:51: A baseline would be a little better education about what we can or cannot do.
00:14:55: They all mean well they all need to hear something about the design.
00:14:59: The starting point might be different.
00:15:01: and Yeah, that's a little bit about them.
00:15:05: yeah I think everybody Immediately had some faces in mind when talking about those people.
00:15:12: you know them from your own organizations.
00:15:14: quite well I think.
00:15:17: The conversation or like at the talk i have in London, bad at all.
00:15:31: It was just funny because I felt also in this talk people could maybe feel identified and reevaluated the way they operate.
00:15:37: when it's about design
00:15:40: do you have created like real more deeper descriptions of the characters are there, also pain points maybe for those.
00:15:50: Because it was like a twenty minutes talk but I'm happy to do so.
00:15:54: yeah It's basically like that dog style presentation.
00:15:57: So really uh...it is quite visual.
00:16:00: i mean you've seen it so quite empty very much of storytelling.
00:16:04: Uh..so think like the images were telling half of story as we're very visual people.
00:16:09: um But if there isn't need or if that's something you think people would benefit of, happy to do so.
00:16:17: Yeah I think it will be a nice exercise and also maybe quite useful too.
00:16:22: then really can work with those personas in your organization.
00:16:28: yeah thats great love.
00:16:31: So yeah, coming back a bit more to the ex-leadership part of it.
00:16:35: You say leadership there is no magic formula.
00:16:39: so organizations and people are complex And stuff.
00:16:44: so in your point of view how can we then?
00:16:48: Bring Organizations to an X maturity level if if there's no real cookbook or recipe our perfect playbooks.
00:16:57: Oh what was your approach in here?
00:16:59: Yeah in your daily life in work?
00:17:02: Yes, I mean we as a small team.
00:17:04: and also there's other part of the creative theme right like.
00:17:07: so it's not only UX design.
00:17:08: It's all end-to-end starting from the HCP facing campaigns.
00:17:13: what are trying to do?
00:17:14: We're trying to be authentic In our way of approaching challenges.
00:17:26: Yeah, being authentic to the team and also discussing with a theme how to show as one voice matters A lot because then we are all telling The same story.
00:17:35: And that helps Because We Are very little people and we are serving Very many of the People.
00:17:40: so I guess the One Voice would be Would Be the Thing?
00:17:46: good culture within your team.
00:17:48: If there is trust, if there's listening mutual understanding then you can all show as one thing.
00:17:53: but yeah!
00:17:53: There are also stuff like playbooks and things like that.
00:17:56: so when it's about the usability testing or any other research method even above UI design they would be six seven eight pages of easy digestible playbook document.
00:18:08: I think something people basically read through a sip of coffee.
00:18:14: give it a try, go and understand.
00:18:18: We are trying to be always there for their requests even though sometimes request don't really belong into UX design but I guess they're still worth of being heard.
00:18:28: yeah i think what you say here is really crucially especially in big organizations.
00:18:33: so people need to understand quickly what do want tell them over sip off coffee as he says oh So I had discussions with other colleagues about this topic as well, so how much shall we stick to our methods and the experience.
00:18:51: We have in the scientific approach that is often used as opposed just hands-on mentality.
00:19:00: or do some quick research or prototyping whatever.
00:19:07: Better than nothing, right?
00:19:09: So what's your view on that.
00:19:11: How do you balance that?
00:19:12: Yeah I mean like there is it's case by case.
00:19:15: Right.
00:19:15: sometimes we have research done so We have to go through a research and pull the key things out of It.
00:19:20: Sometimes we are in charge To do a little Research.
00:19:24: And i say too Little because since three four years Since i joined The last team uh its been less On our hands.
00:19:30: now A little bit more With usability testing um Coming up but Um Its actually us getting the research results and learning more, but yes I am like totally up for bringing the evidence into the picture.
00:19:45: And not working with hypotheses and assumptions even though we can have a lot!
00:19:49: But having real evidence will definitely help.
00:19:53: I mean researchers say well maybe uncover the needs or it would reinforce the positives which is great um...but then giving things an interfaces in to really users hands walk us through what they are doing, but also talk to our minds while we're doing things.
00:20:10: So it's great to see those overlaps and the proof of concert would actually be good in order to continue.
00:20:17: so I'm totally up for that.
00:20:20: obviously
00:20:22: yeah.
00:20:24: This brings me maybe on next topic which is preparation talks.
00:20:33: Organizations somehow work like a kitchen.
00:20:37: And so you have also in your talk, kind of cooking metaphor.
00:20:43: and yeah as we talked at the beginning it's not about just presenting artifacts but putting a plate nice looking plate infront of user.
00:20:54: But also this system behind is in a kitchen works sometimes like in organizations and you can use this metaphor also for UX work.
00:21:05: So how do you think, uh... Can product teams be compared to all the personnel in a kitchen?
00:21:15: Yes that's what I had at my talk.
00:21:18: right we have the Discover Research Cook & Taste versus Discover Research Cooking Test design and test, excuse me.
00:21:27: Yes so I feel like those are the basic components of a good usable solution because everyone wants intuitive solutions but useable one would.
00:21:38: first we have to discover what is real need there?
00:21:41: What our users want or business needs all joined together through discovery.
00:21:46: try build small little segment by testing it.
00:21:51: they will see actually work.
00:21:54: Or, does it taste well?
00:21:56: Can we continue further and then... We would obviously iterate on it.
00:22:00: And build a real product out of that or create the meal that we would repetitively serve to our users and get most user satisfaction.
00:22:09: We have also remembered that users are only complaining when things are bad not good but same with food right!
00:22:16: Maybe here someone thinks your restaurant is amazing But at this point you really need lots a little above the average, either solutions or meals.
00:22:27: They need a lot of work up front in order to kind just keep the ground calm and keeping things working.
00:22:34: so I'm trying to promote that concept also within the organization too.
00:22:39: really start small do less better over the time because we can always increase the scope.
00:22:46: We can make a product that or we can add features to it, whatever you want.
00:22:50: when something is working and getting adopted people speak about it as being used.
00:22:57: has its population then everything's a little easier.
00:23:00: yeah if you learn how to start cooking maybe you should also start with small dishes and easy things to cook.
00:23:09: otherwise most probably will not be that good.
00:23:13: But also, I mean your guests maybe have some different needs depending on time of day or the situation.
00:23:22: sometimes they may just want to get fed so don't be hungry anymore but in other occasions they expect more fine dining environment.
00:23:37: and How does this compare to creating the experiences for your customers?
00:23:45: Yeah, I mean we also should have in mind that why one size doesn't fit all and the taste cannot be really discussed.
00:23:52: It's very subjective and personal.
00:23:54: That brings me.
00:23:55: another topic is called opinions.
00:23:57: everyone has run And being a visual team it's... We are the ones hearing their opinion most because our progress is visually visible fast.
00:24:08: It's difficult.
00:24:09: You can't find multiple people with the same taste, especially if that is not what they are searching for.
00:24:15: so it's also okay to have a solution which isn't for everyone.
00:24:19: So I think we should be just aware of when you're working on it in case your feedback wasn't as expected.
00:24:27: even our primary audience or secondary audiences Or its the audience who want cover at some point but not right away.
00:24:36: Funny thing is that I also sometimes use a kind of kitchen metaphor for quick and dirty usability tests.
00:24:42: So, i call...sometimes called the Kitchen Usability because you just go to the coffee kitchen in your organization And ask people running around there about some prototypes You have prepared?
00:24:55: Sometimes it's great results!
00:25:00: Yes Same like the user interviews with doctors, they might not work but I know a few doctors.
00:25:06: They just ask questions that don't deliberately say what their idea was and pick up thoughts about certain things to see if it's good or bad direction we're going into.
00:25:18: Just speaking of this already helps Lock the kitchen metaphor in your case as well.
00:25:25: Yeah, that's really good.
00:25:26: and if you transfer there to UX leadership so we can then also ask certain questions like who are we cooking for?
00:25:34: This would be the users of course.
00:25:38: Why?
00:25:39: why are we doing it?
00:25:40: do you mention that already?
00:25:42: yeah,
00:25:43: why is all important?
00:25:45: Yes, and the entire product roadmap?
00:25:47: how will be long-term cooking look as well?
00:25:50: And yeah What is the main objective of the product or service we are creating?
00:25:56: so that all in mind should like bring us into Into like several great user stories.
00:26:02: We can start working on for sure.
00:26:05: It's also important always to invite yourself back to the equal purpose and vision of the products They're creating.
00:26:11: yes, but then research plays a huge role there.
00:26:15: Maybe it also helps to sharpen the vision of the organization itself.
00:26:20: So do we want to be a fast food restaurant?
00:26:22: Do you wanna be Gourmet Restaurant, so this heavily differentiate what kind of dishes would present in the end
00:26:33: for sure.
00:26:34: It also depends like if they are serving the internal or external public audience right.
00:26:42: and there is.
00:26:43: There is difference because the internal interfaces are not publicly accessible.
00:26:48: It maybe then has to do with how your employees feel about certain experiences and also they're part of a group, so their expectation is different.
00:26:56: but when it comes to brand recognition or external visibility I think that's even more important as its louder on outside people might be critical than an interface fail to work at the specific action even though it's existing for the purpose of accomplishing that action.
00:27:19: Yeah, so its great.
00:27:20: be careful and like put something else out when we are sure if works also represent a brand they're working with on any social how the entire company wants to be perceived.
00:27:30: yeah It is funny because in big organizations where somehow quite used too that internal tools are not that good.
00:27:39: So nobody's really surprised.
00:27:42: and yeah, if we can level it up then I think many of our internal customers would be very delighted
00:27:49: for sure.
00:27:50: i mean there is always a lot of work And in my past role you might looking into internally facing tool that is limited by its feasibility because there's a technology behind.
00:28:04: Still, we were able to assess one or two user journeys of the most important action and make it seem less.
00:28:11: That what I'm saying aesthetics isn't all about UX but still with Having a bit more intuitive setup for like selecting dates or submitting body vacations, or anything.
00:28:26: Like that what anyone of us would be dealing with makes it a lot easier for the internal people to save time.
00:28:33: they can focus on things that matter.
00:28:36: Yeah so the constraints are not enemies Sort of so they are part of the craft and provide some guidelines that you can follow.
00:28:48: And it's the same with cooking as well, I mean... You only have those ingredients at hand which is available.
00:28:57: then make your best out of them!
00:29:00: I always admire people who just come in to look what's in their fridge and make a great meal out of this.
00:29:08: So thats the art Of cooking and also then the art of your exercise in the end
00:29:13: for sure.
00:29:14: And also know where you play, You don't want to make a top three star initially restaurant if you Don't have the ingredients or knowledge for it.
00:29:22: So If you're just an average one be an average One would be great than what you do.
00:29:27: so rather Than frustrated and then discouraged being courage with What you had to make The best because sometimes those Average restaurants can be great as well.
00:29:36: same with solutions
00:29:37: Yeah Definitely.
00:29:41: So yes, feedback loops are also important like when you cook.
00:29:49: probably it would taste in between and decide how much salt to add or other herbs.
00:29:56: so can maybe talk a little bit about the tasting?
00:30:03: Or is research an iterative approach that you follow in your organizations, how do you convince stakeholders to give you the budget and time for iterative design processes?
00:30:14: Well I presented this something very fast and simple.
00:30:16: We only need five users!
00:30:17: And then... I also just like go those potential users and see if there is a volunteer who can do that.
00:30:25: Anyway it's part of our time right?
00:30:28: let say a simple usability testing will be building tasks scenarios entirely simple such as searchability findability, or like simple actions.
00:30:38: just to prove the concept of a quick navigation test.
00:30:40: And then I already asked them up front if they would be curious.
00:30:44: and once i have number five that's how we're going do it.
00:30:48: so its about confidence than presented to senior leadership.
00:30:53: oh wow!
00:30:53: That sounds like an evidential something which should be doing in order get happy customers who are using this tool audience, so I guess it's just like no other way around.
00:31:08: There were times that was harder than it is right now.
00:31:11: It seems people either educate themselves a little bit better about usability or they do see more sense in after we've been speaking for few time.
00:31:21: Sometimes its purely validation.
00:31:24: What I'm only careful with is always the opinions.
00:31:28: So yeah, i don't like red.
00:31:29: Yeah right so uh...I think try to Always tell people that we've hear what they feel.
00:31:36: but We are looking into evidence based either flows or solutions that would engage our customers and then trying to educate.
00:31:46: And most of the people are quite open.
00:31:48: if you tell them out-of-the-research, testing with users even though it's just a validation option.
00:31:54: one two three can be super fast.
00:31:57: they're very supportive but both say like why am I to say right?
00:32:02: You've asked so often not saying It doesn't work after our first conversation because we might cross the people that will be a bit more negative about certain approach or would need a little rational.
00:32:18: So when it happens, taking time and trying to give them like step further but budget for five users was not an issue I guess is just another right time for us two years ago start doing stuff Like this.
00:32:33: And how do you convince critics who say ah!
00:32:35: That's not representative We need one hundred?
00:32:38: I went a hundred of users.
00:32:40: Yeah, no, invite myself to nilson norman pattern article and share it further like obviously None of my conversations so far needed like fifteen talks about disability testing.
00:32:53: It was already one-and-go And it's like.
00:32:55: can you manage until then?
00:32:57: Because we would need it Like.
00:32:59: Can we present something?
00:33:01: So yeah often there were different groups within Novartis that had something like a focus group with users monthly.
00:33:11: So by connecting myself to the owners of those focus groups, I was able once listen in other time to present something.
00:33:19: so out of those groups i got people.
00:33:21: and then it's proven because these are coming from different countries they have their needs maybe working on different brands also quite legible too.
00:33:30: share that we don't need alot.
00:33:32: how pattern actually happens?
00:33:34: Yeah, so that there are two key takeaways from my point of view.
00:33:37: first is time pressure on our side in that case.
00:33:41: So if we do not have that much time That's actually okay because then we can We cannot test with Thousands of users.
00:33:51: We have to stick to five and you know five to seven or nine is enough To find yeah at ninety-five percent of the problems and stuff.
00:34:00: And second is connect to other teams, I think this was also key so which are maybe in marketing or sales representatives?
00:34:09: Also i think
00:34:10: yes for sure.
00:34:11: yeah.
00:34:12: another thing it's just like find your friends In a way that speak about their work the way you wouldn't but they would kind of be those people promoting and send other people to you.
00:34:29: So like getting really, they would be your advocates for the tool solution or processes that you're having.
00:34:35: And um... That really helps a lot because everyone knows who is creative.
00:34:41: theme.
00:34:41: what are we doing?
00:34:42: just trying tell same message all time finding friends then everytime challenge arises on their end They will reach out.
00:34:53: Coming back a bit to the kitchen metaphor and what I also experience sometimes, especially in design teams that you know.
00:35:02: The Design Manager would be the star of show and stuff And others will just follow if we transfer this to the Kitchen Metaphor.
00:35:18: Also everybody follows them, but how is your view on that?
00:35:27: How can we maybe also overcome and create new leadership styles what sometimes it's called servant leadership.
00:35:35: And stuff like that?
00:35:38: What was your view?
00:35:39: one of those leadership related topics.
00:35:42: Yeah, I mean we are quite a linear team mostly and then everyone has their own voice.
00:35:53: know things much better operationally than I do.
00:35:56: So, we are all like challenging each other on those daily sometimes meetings as well which i think is extremely important whom you work with.
00:36:07: and then it's not only about me or my leader or her leader to talk about things.
00:36:12: It's all about the team.
00:36:13: but um...I'm working within the environment where this is normal.
00:36:17: I don't how its otherwise.
00:36:18: so every person gets there recognition where needed and gets to speak about the part of the work he or she did, what was most dominant in.
00:36:31: So I feel like it can't be that a leader is doing everything by him or herself!
00:36:38: It's just probably people thinking lots hours for all us come here we are... take a moment and like appreciate the people you're working with publicly also, within other people.
00:36:55: Yeah that's amazing.
00:36:56: I mean i know if all of the designers are work with tomorrow morning or sick it would be real disaster in terms.
00:37:07: even they have stronger call them saying so really appreciated how works all of us is quite nice and quite trustful, everyone's ready to go an extra mile where it's needed.
00:37:21: And I'm just like...I think every one my colleagues know about the team that i am working with.
00:37:29: so its not all about us.
00:37:32: Yeah thats true!
00:37:33: Its more about creating environment where others can deliver.
00:37:44: I don't know, like trying to see that the work is in everything of their life.
00:37:50: There's also other stuff.
00:37:52: so i think if one day someone is ready to go an extra mile they want to do it because they feel good with it.
00:37:57: It shouldn't become a practice.
00:37:59: you should appreciate them as people too Because people who are happy with their work-life integration how I call it?
00:38:07: They're much happier where they work at and we get all together better results.
00:38:14: So just identifying there are other things of their life and trying not to jeopardize them from the minute they wake up until They go to bed or even later Just trying to keep it healthy.
00:38:25: Even though we know that sometimes There aren't exceptions, but the exception shouldn't become a reality.
00:38:31: Yeah That's true.
00:38:34: so What are the essential ingredients?
00:38:38: or how do you actually make this happen?
00:38:43: Can I give some practical advice on making people go the extra mile and also feel valued, safe in your team.
00:38:54: Yeah!
00:38:56: I'm happy to protect what their word is, which i feel it's the most important.
00:39:04: And also myself a little bit like that...I will give alot if im not forced too!
00:39:10: So Im trying to present either weekly or daily depending on whats task and what we are trying to accomplish with realistic plan.
00:39:19: Trying just be understandable.
00:39:23: We are not the latest in the chain.
00:39:25: So if something goes wrong, we can talk about it.
00:39:27: and that's not the evaluation of their skills If they missed a deadline?
00:39:31: We mostly don't.
00:39:32: but there are things you cannot influence.
00:39:34: so trying to see how Can we influence what we come to give our best from our end given The time frame then we have all have around eight hours a day for work.
00:39:45: Not go beyond them.
00:39:46: But if there is an extreme wish I myself as well might open something on a Sunday night because i think Monday morning will be easier for me, but that's my personal vision.
00:39:55: I don't expect it from others and is not every Sunday.
00:39:58: So Yeah we talk like daily.
00:40:01: often We have one-on-one course weekly or a small team gatherings as design theme only But also within the creative team weekly.
00:40:11: so i think the grump is quite safe where everyone can express how they feel The most important their opinion valued when they speak up, so trying to find a solution for that as well.
00:40:25: So everyone is happy.
00:40:28: Yeah I think yeah.
00:40:28: the latter... Or
00:40:29: stress resistant!
00:40:31: True true i think what you said at last was also very important and the team members have not only an impression but really can influence something.
00:40:47: The best way to, I think, discourage your team members is just ignore what they say.
00:40:53: Not even criticize but ignoring it as an even more disastrous than criticizing and... For sure!
00:41:02: Yeah for sure.
00:41:03: yeah i think the feelings are real on all of this side so business should be done without too many emotions in there.
00:41:16: So, but still being real about like things in date that happen or the private obligations are doctors appointments?
00:41:24: Or I don't know what else our holidays that are planned But the work hasn't been done.
00:41:31: It's all like a constant conversation and then we'll figure out the way And trying to really make sure it doesn't all fall on one person if possible.
00:41:42: And yeah, so this often used term servant leadership is not just about letting things go and everybody's doing what he wants or she wants to.
00:41:51: But it's playing an active role in encouraging your team there for balancing the empathy with also high standard expectations.
00:42:01: at the same time I think
00:42:03: For sure like leading with heart and understand how they city that you have as a leader?
00:42:11: Yeah.
00:42:13: Coming to another topic, which is also often discussed in our community's age-child leadership and how can a child leadership be understood or compared?
00:42:30: Can you talk a little bit about that?
00:42:32: Yeah,
00:42:32: I'm thinking like agility for me comes from my sport.
00:42:35: We always had very agile movements.
00:42:38: That's when i heard it first and think was eight.
00:42:44: Agility for me means as well, flexibility and being open.
00:42:48: So when it comes to a product delivery we might need to jump from one thing to another faster than what you thought or maybe double the requirements then be initially taught.
00:42:58: so just like having that room and being flexible and open minded to pick up things as they come and go because I can plant at certain level until you can't plan anymore multitude of elements coming together into Agile readership or like Agile wears a working, right?
00:43:19: It's far from perfect at all.
00:43:21: But as long you know for yourself and the team what will be most important thing to do then everything else is secondary.
00:43:28: I think that we have seven things going on And the eighth one comes up, and it's not number-one.
00:43:36: That just gonna be taken into consideration or we might revaluate priorities but if there is a thing that has to done then this will first.
00:43:46: So its about that.
00:43:48: Then again Comes in hand with scope changes of that one priority which was like classic right?
00:43:55: We need that.
00:43:58: so yeah I mean...we can do As much as we can do, there are many people.
00:44:06: We will do our best but some things might also just fall off and that doesn't mean a failure.
00:44:12: That means like it was too much And anyway did our best so we couldn't pick this up.
00:44:18: So next time is just D. There must be root cause of the happening the flow, stuff coming in and projects coming.
00:44:31: And then let's reevaluate how to do better next time.
00:44:35: we've learned something.
00:44:37: Ironically, if you follow the rules of some scrum frameworks or stuff they are quite strict.
00:44:45: They wouldn't
00:44:47: allow it.
00:44:48: This sounds like a contradiction to actually expectations for being flexible and stuff like that.
00:44:54: so I assume we do not really strictly follow such kind of framework?
00:44:57: No!
00:44:57: We did in the team when i was the UX design lead within Novartis team on the IT side masters, we followed the Agile product framework and yes they had a clear version like what does it mean to get stuff done?
00:45:12: And when is it done.
00:45:16: What are the five items that we have chosen as a team put into the backlog.
00:45:20: so It was quite strict on this iterative delivery which approach I completely value because i think you can't do all at the same time.
00:45:30: but still today might be there's something coming in or that the leadership for Goddard didn't understand, it will be our thing to do.
00:45:40: So I'm trying kind of open and flexible through that aspect but not trying to add a lot weight into the team when its about those asks we're seeing like is there another way?
00:45:51: We can get this done with maybe some external or freelance support if our capacities are full.
00:45:58: It all depends on the ask and complexity.
00:46:02: But yeah!
00:46:03: It doesn't go hand in hand with agile methodology That's true.
00:46:07: So how do you balance then short term requests with like things or the timing that is actually needed sometimes for a deep research and development work?
00:46:19: Short-term request are relatively simple.
00:46:22: They're not some requested.
00:46:24: they would need an entire feature design, it's mostly if provided color, brand palette would be accessible digitally and what color combinations will work.
00:46:37: or there are multiple logo submissions for the research.
00:46:41: We need another version.
00:46:43: could you recolor?
00:46:45: Yeah Or There is like an important presentation.
00:46:47: we need a few things to either not make it only beautiful but I can make it functional evidence based proven Could add a few thing.
00:46:55: so It's mostly Like The way he would present ourselves all the way to prove something that Valid by our profession such as accessibility.
00:47:04: So mostly like someone picks it up because It's a quite short-term request Yeah,
00:47:11: that's good and you can handle it.
00:47:14: Yes when it comes in yeah That's good.
00:47:19: Yeah, but what is also often discussed when we talk about HR development.
00:47:23: It's a shift of attention which brings us back to the beginning of our conversation from the actual activity and products through the outcome.
00:47:35: so I like Charles Dool quite a lot.
00:47:39: he says if you would do very good job how it will be improved in life for users an important topic to keep in mind.
00:47:51: So what's your view on that?
00:47:54: On doing a good job and improving people's life at the end of it, I do fully support that.
00:48:01: Mist needs have never bring anyone into better place brings me back to the purpose of why I'm doing the job.
00:48:13: I am working in pharma with priority brands, bringing some of the clinically proven data that certain medicine would potentially improve life and we are within Drug or that statistic to be shown further to an HCP.
00:48:31: So I feel like it's a very meaningful job That are doing.
00:48:34: we're trying to simplify layouts and information for our doctor from the standard in a fast-meaning cool way so the best and fastest way, so I do think like that certain UX decisions can be much bigger than with thing.
00:48:49: And again, it depends.
00:48:50: if you want to do an online shopping It might apply to a certain extent, but again it depends on the purpose of product you're working.
00:48:59: But for sure!
00:49:00: If experiences especially governmental or police experience if there would be re-evaluated I'm sure that certain things will definitely result as an improved life.
00:49:14: Yeah absolutely.
00:49:16: So we learned about... about being the most artistic voice in their room.
00:49:25: It's all about helping the organizations think more clearly, but one thing I want to discuss with you as well is when do You also in your talk you compare creating digital products to like building a house but the house is finished.
00:49:45: I mean, In fact it's never really finish what?
00:49:50: The dish at least is finished and then presented.
00:49:53: so how do we know that In terms
00:49:59: of design systems, we can be done for the moment.
00:50:03: So at least it's like a little relief of okay but you don't have to pick up next two weeks – It is fine!
00:50:11: We deliver international assets.
00:50:13: so there are points even though doing our best that everything we can they're included and ready for markets to use.
00:50:22: That is all done.
00:50:23: Sadly we do not see past that or trying more.
00:50:27: But in certain ways, it's just the product life cycle.
00:50:31: Good products are never done and then new technology arises... The new research comes in to new requirements come in.
00:50:39: we want to be better.
00:50:40: We wanna keep up.
00:50:41: so a certain things Just comma another runs In our hands And that's okay.
00:50:47: I guess It is important To have certain closure.
00:50:50: Maybe talk about the certain product timeframe, like have a retroactive view show and tell around what we did.
00:51:00: So everyone feels heard in their process is able to present with.
00:51:05: the role was what they accomplished.
00:51:07: so that accomplishes.
00:51:08: our accomplishments are a bit fragmented?
00:51:11: You feel you actually do something.
00:51:13: I'm not always going back through file and reworking whatever you did but yeah temporarily done like house
00:51:22: Yeah, done for now but it will be improved over a lifetime.
00:51:28: Yes of course!
00:51:30: Great.
00:51:31: so yeah.
00:51:32: thanks for this really rich conversation.
00:51:35: Ellie if you have one sentence which she would like to leave our listeners especially those who are thinking about moving their career to the next level and going into UX leadership roles.
00:51:48: So from your experience, is there one advice you would give to them?
00:51:55: Yeah.
00:51:55: Well it's not an advice.
00:51:56: the sentence I'm always using like... The best view is a changed one.
00:52:02: so if you think in right way change perspective try and look at another angle And um.. There isn't any truth.
00:52:12: Sometimes there are two truths, sometimes they're multiple truth.
00:52:14: So try to challenge yourself and the way you think.
00:52:18: And um There's so many things that are right in thinking in design in life.
00:52:24: Yeah That's the principles I'm trying to follow as well.
00:52:27: yeah great great yeah i can fully support that for sure Yes.
00:52:32: And if people want to get in contact, I guess you're open to talk at on LinkedIn or something?
00:52:40: For sure!
00:52:40: Like happy to have a conversation whenever needed.
00:52:44: those things are mostly nice things do exchange
00:52:48: Yeah and we will definitely link your profile into show notes.
00:52:54: Thank You very much for Your time today.
00:52:58: Thanks to you it was pleasure
00:53:02: Likewise.
00:53:03: Then happy cooking!
00:53:06: Same here, dinner time.
00:53:08: Yeah
00:53:08: yeah true all right.
00:53:10: then thanks and talk to you soon
00:53:13: bye.
